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[ragnarok97071]

oh, alright... Well, you guys seem to be having fun arguing, so verdict tomorrow?

[lemon10]

I think its pretty fair to call for the disqualification of Sauron, since it's pretty clear that about 95% of the competition would have no way of hurting him

Untrue. The naga could see him and hit him with astounding magicks. Ozymandias could outsmart him. Kikaida could fly away and spot him with his enemy-finding-vision. Youmu could avoid the mace due to incorporeality. Paul Atreides (though disqualified) could have blocked every attack with his shield, due to him knowing Sauron's every move. Same for Duncan, minus the prescience. the GDI Disc Thrower could hit him with a huuuuge explosion. Alex Louis Armstrong could match his matter-control-powers with the added bonus of facial hair. Alien could see him with echolocation/heatvision/alien magic. Mr. Miyagi could tweak his nose. There are others, but this is already turning into a rather long list.

He would own the naga, everyone here is saying that he could basically ignore zedd's lightning, and i doubt that the naga's lightning is that much more powerful, and in melee he would own the naga. ozy being smart would mean nothing, he still has no means of hurting him. Kikaida would be unable to hurt him even if he found him. Youmu isn't actually a ghost (and if she was he could still hurt her probablt). Paul was disqualified so it doesn't matter. Duncan couldn't even see him, due to his being able to turn invisibile (apparently), and he could use his fear ability to beat duncan, or kill duncan with his first strike. The GDI disc thrower coudn't see him because he can turn invisible. Louis would get pwned by sauron at close range (and sauron, being invisible would get to chose when to attack). Alien could do nothing against him, because he is apparently a spirit in his armor, so his electrovision thing wouldn't do anything. Miyagi would get owned much harder.
Against any enemy, sauron would get first attack due to being invisible, and once engaged, i have trouble thinking of a charachter in this competition that stands a chance against him, given that he has "the strength of a thousand men", is able to leap 20 feet and is actually a animated suit of armor.

Yeah, others stand a chance, stop trying to win by default, thanks. Sauron is powerful. but not much more than anything else. cut off a finger and he dies instantly (with a massive explosion that mostly makes it a tie, but still)

Garg.

Cut off a finger and he dies instantly (with a massive explosion that mostly makes it a tie, but still)

Actually, I think we're using the version before all the soul-binding, so cutting the ring off just puts a dent in his power, it doesn't kill him outright.
I could be wrong, though.

I believe we are using the sauron from when he had the ring, but before it was cut off (he just loses the power of immortality)

But the wraiths were invisible, except to those wearing the Ring. They were only semi-visible to most because of their aura of fear and the black cloaks they wore. Here, have a source.
-snip-

I guess the wraiths are invisible, but nothing they carry is (at least according to the movie), but as long as sauron wants to wear armor or use a weapon, he is visible.

But if I recall correctly Sauron is of the same type of spirit as Gandalf (If someone could confirm/correct I'd appreciate it) and thus would technically have access to the same abilities. And considering he doesn't restrict himself for the sake of mortals, they'd be far more powerful spells at that.

Yeah, sauron is the same kind of spirit as gandalf, but he is significantly weaker then he was in the simillarion. Also, he wouldn't have acess to the same abilities, thats like saying both spiderman and mr.incredible are both humans, so they should have acess to the same abilities. While many abilities of sauron and gandalf COULD overlap, many don't.

If he is wearing that suit of full plate that he wore in the movie, i don't think he could move very fast at all. In addition, the horse would be useless since it would die in one hit of zedd's lightning.  He could shapeshift into a faster form, but then he wouldn't have his mace or armor.

If he's indeed a spirit, I think he'd move fairly fast. Armor isn't all that heavy when nobody's inside it.

He needs muscles to move the armor, i'm not convinced that he would be able to move it as a spirit, if that was the case why would he wear the armor at all? why wouldn't he just be a flying mace with the ring on it that hits people?

And as for jumping its pretty much a no, assuming he is wearing armor, since it would weigh him down alot.

In a world where people turn invisible when wearing rings, giant eagles fly around (which should be physically impossible), demons made of flame and shadow square off against magical old men who are angels in disguise, and being courageous is literally a superpower, jumping armor is where you draw the line??

Errr... we try to retain some laws of physics, unless they are explicitly contradicted in the source material. Unless jumping armor is his super power sure, but its not. If it was powered armor sure, but its not. You try to jump wearing 200 pounds of metal, no matter how strong you are, it will weigh you down.

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

The only other figure present was Glorfindel, so it had to be him. Elves are not normally shining lights, and if I recall Glorfindel was a higher sort of elf anyway, so it would seem that this is his "true form".

Hm, i think it was more of a magical projection then him turning into a spirit and back, and that his body was still alive when he was doing it.

Next, if not touching the ring was harming Sauron he wouldn't even be able to wear a glove. He obviously did in the movie, and there's no reason to suggest otherwise in the books. Therefore he could easily be in spirit form under that armor.  And what kind of defense is "I don't think he could be"? What proof do you have to support this?

When the ring came off his finger he blew up, thats my proof. Mabey he just happend to blow up at the same time, but i doubt it.

Yeah, others stand a chance, stop trying to win by default, thanks. Sauron is powerful. but not much more than anything else. cut off a finger and he dies instantly (with a massive explosion that mostly makes it a tie, but still)

We're using Sauron in all his dark glory, but he doesn't have the immortality that putting part of his soul in the Ring gave him. If you chop off his finger, then he is slightly weaker (though not crippled), but he doesn't explode or die instantly

The ring didn't make him immortal, he was always immortal cutting off the ring would still kill him, but he just doesn't have the passive immorality that he always had.

Whew long argument.

[CJ1145]

He would own the naga, everyone here is saying that he could basically ignore zedd's lightning, and i doubt that the naga's lightning is that much more powerful, and in melee he would own the naga.

The naga has other spells more suited to fighting a suit of armor.

ozy being smart would mean nothing, he still has no means of hurting him.

The hand-to-hand skills Ozymandias has, he could probably just rip bits of Sauron's armor off one by one until nothing was left to fight with. Or devise a trap to crush him.

Kikaida would be unable to hurt him even if he found him.

Sauron's armor is never mentioned to have special qualities, it's just thick. Kikaida could smash through it easily enough.

Youmu isn't actually a ghost (and if she was he could still hurt her probablt).

Meh.

Paul was disqualified so it doesn't matter. Duncan couldn't even see him, due to his being able to turn invisibile (apparently), and he could use his fear ability to beat duncan, or kill duncan with his first strike.

Well, Duncan would survive the first strike by virtue of his shield. Unless Sauron had the foresight to just pick him up and crush him barehanded. If that doesn't happen Duncan's going to get a reasonable chance to counter.

The GDI disc thrower coudn't see him because he can turn invisible.

Motion detector.

Louis would get pwned by sauron at close range (and sauron, being invisible would get to chose when to attack).

Actually, Armstrong is super-resistant to damage, the guy got his head smashed into a wall, visibly damaging the wall, and then got dragged along that wall about twenty feet, and all it did was give him moderate bleeding. Plus, his ability to manipulate matter could let him transmute Sauron's armor into something harmless, like a statue of himself.

Alien could do nothing against him, because he is apparently a spirit in his armor, so his electrovision thing wouldn't do anything.

Well, yeah. You talk like Sauron isn't allowed to be superior to anyone.

Against any enemy, sauron would get first attack due to being invisible, and once engaged, i have trouble thinking of a charachter in this competition that stands a chance against him, given that he has "the strength of a thousand men", is able to leap 20 feet and is actually a animated suit of armor.

No, there are conditions. If Sauron doesn't consider them a valid threat, he'd have no reason to be invisible. Even then, light as he would be he'd still make noise due to his metal armor. Anyone paying attention could find him, it's the cocky idiots that get caught off guard.

I guess the wraiths are invisible, but nothing they carry is (at least according to the movie), but as long as sauron wants to wear armor or use a weapon, he is visible.

But Sauron's ring turns everything on the person invisible. It's a greater sort of invisibility, as it comes from Sauron himself and not just contact with him.

Yeah, sauron is the same kind of spirit as gandalf, but he is significantly weaker then he was in the simillarion. Also, he wouldn't have acess to the same abilities, thats like saying both spiderman and mr.incredible are both humans, so they should have acess to the same abilities. While many abilities of sauron and gandalf COULD overlap, many don't.

That is a flawed argument. The spirits here are naturally powered, so there is little room for deviation. It's not Spider-Man and Mr. Incredible, it's closer to Hal Jordan and John Stewart. Both are Green Lanterns with the same power. They might do different things with that power, but it's the same pool they're drawing from.

He needs muscles to move the armor, i'm not convinced that he would be able to move it as a spirit, if that was the case why would he wear the armor at all? why wouldn't he just be a flying mace with the ring on it that hits people?

Intimidation, pride, something to store his soul in. All are valid reasons.

Errr... we try to retain some laws of physics, unless they are explicitly contradicted in the source material. Unless jumping armor is his super power sure, but its not. If it was powered armor sure, but its not. You try to jump wearing 200 pounds of metal, no matter how strong you are, it will weigh you down.

We are using characters from Fullmetal Alchemist, where walking suits of armor are capable of everything and more that is described of Sauron here. By the necessities of this competition it is possible.

Hm, i think it was more of a magical projection then him turning into a spirit and back, and that his body was still alive when he was doing it.

Magical projection? What does that even mean?? His body was right there, why would he need to project? If you think of his mortal body more as a skin than a true body (which is probably closer to the truth, considering his nature) it's easy to see that it could be shed when necessary.

When the ring came off his finger he blew up, thats my proof. Mabey he just happend to blow up at the same time, but i doubt it.

That's because he poured everything into the ring, that isn't the case here. Also you totally dodged my question, I was asking how it could be out of direct contact with his finger and not have him exploding.

Whew long argument.

And yet it's so easy to defeat, because half of it runs on troll logic.

[Heron TSG]

You keep going on about how we're not using the movie, yet you just said that Sauron blew up when the ring came off. In the book, he fell. That's all. No kaboom.

As far as him turning invisible while his armor remains visible, why was it that Bilbo's or Frodo's clothes turned invisible? I'd imagine that it's because the Ringwraiths are better at controlling the effect. After all, why would they opt to be invisible all the time? It's not like you can scare someone by sneaking at them.

He needs muscles to move the armor, I'm not convinced that he would be able to move it as a spirit, if that was the case why would he wear the armor at all? why wouldn't he just be a flying mace with the ring on it that hits people?

If you needed muscle in order to move things, tornadoes would be pretty goddamn scary. Whether he's a spirit or not, doubtless he knows how to move, else he would never be described as wearing armor. He wouldn't be a flying mace with a ring on it because the mace can't fly. It's actually held by a hand. His hand. The one he uses to swing it at people. What basis do you have for saying that Sauron would possibly want to become a floating weapon? You're just getting silly.

Kikaida would be unable to hurt him even if he found him.
Against any enemy, Sauron would get first attack due to being invisible, and once engaged, I have trouble thinking of a character in this competition that stands a chance against him, given that he has "the strength of a thousand men"

Kikaida is also unreasonably strong. Kikaida can see him even when he is invisible due to futuristic Japanese enemy-finder-vision. Kikaida can also fly. I could go into detail on at least two other characters remaining in this current round that could beat him, but I'm sure you could see them yourself if you looked hard enough.

[RAM]

*sighs* I still don't think he is invisible, but I am willing to concede on the basis that this is turning into a very long argument.

Can Sauron at least 'sound' like someone who is wearing an mythically heavy suit of armour that is designed more to be intimidating than flexible?

[Sean Mirrsen]

It can be inflexible all it wants - worn by someone with the "strength of a thousand men", if it's not made of unobtanium, it will not restrict movement.

[ed boy]

Also, suits of armour being cumbersome and limiting movement is an urban legend: someone who is used to wearing a suit or armour could be quite agile.

[Sean Mirrsen]

He would really be quite agile if he is that strong - I imagine that, in the movie depiction, he was only "wading" through the army around him because he saw it fit to smack every soldier in his path. He could probably sprint through their ranks as if they were grass.

[RAM]

I am not arguing that it would restrict movement, I am arguing that you could hear it coming...

[FuzzyZergling]

I am not arguing that it would restrict movement, I am arguing that you could hear it coming...

Perhaps.

I have a question because I'm a LotR noob, is Sauron's armor just normal armor?

[Heron TSG]

Yes. It is thick, spiky, and intimidating, but it is definitely mundane iron.

On the topic of hearing him, you probably could. Sam, for example, could still make noises that the goblins of Cirith Ungol could hear. However, plate mail isn't as cacophonous as you may believe; usually it's only the weapon banging against the leg or the feet clicking on the ground. In a jungle, though, I'm sure he could find soft ground to walk on while his weapon is drawn.

[ragnarok97071]

I have a question because I'm a LotR noob, is Sauron's armor just normal armor?

Lucky you, I have a picture.

Spoiler: Huge image (click to show/hide)

[nordak]

You guys are seriously going to need to read the books to judge this, Sauron has more to his disposal than just invisibility, armor, and a huge mace that will fling people 50 ft in the air...  You should have DQ'ed him in his first round, think DEMIGOD that thinks he should be a GOD.

[FuzzyZergling]

You're thinking of Silmarillion Sauron (maybe), we're using meta-Sauron (perhaps).

Also, I've read all the books, but it was several years ago, so my info could be horrendosly inadequate.

[RAM]

Acepted:
Dark Lord Sauron (with the condition that he is without his ring)
Alex Louis Armstrong

To be honest, I'm not too clued up on what sauron was like before the ring was made.  After losing the ring, he didn't have a proper body, and can't really be entered in the competition.

What I was thinking was the bit we get to see at the "flashback" stage at the start of the first movie (except he would die when his body is killed).