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[SirBayer]

A PAIR OF WARNINGS: First off, I'm going off to Lake Tahoe in a few-ish hours. I don't know if I'll have the internet there, but if I do I'll be present. If not, I'll be back Tuesday evening.

Secondly: I am having a really, really hard time caring about this game. That said:

Speculation, Webby? This is WIFOM. Watch your step. You and I make bad fireworks.

SirBayer. Speculation is nowhere near WIFOM. The fact you're trying to attach WIFOM to me is a sign that youre setting up an early subconscious scum tag to me, either in hopes of having someone to attack in the future, or because you have no idea what the acronym WIFOM means.

Oh, I'd love to apply some scum tags to you. That's scum-hunting. Anyway...

How on Earth you got WIFOM from me claiming my STATISTICAL OPINION of what is in the game is beyond me. All of the possible teams (Or ones I know of) are up there, so I'm not LIMITING information or forcing an either-or situation. I didn't definitively conclude the presence of any teams except Survivor and Mafia (since there's ALWAYS a Survivor and Mafia in every of these big games [And this is based off of ACTUAL information.]) I'm not claiming anyone to be of any of these parties, so I'm not trying to nullify someone's words based on that...

So, what IS it that makes it WIFOM? Am I claiming to be a Survivor or Mafia, because of that statement? That's like saying, "I'm 90% sure there's Town in this game." That's not really WIFOM. It's just stupid. Saying that there are zero town in this game is WIFOM. Saying that so-and-so is a Jester is WIFOM.

To even label it WIFOM is an attempt to silence such speculation. Seeing as how the set-up and roles are completely unknown, NOT speculating leads to irrational and stupid decision. Having open options means that there will be all possible situations to consider, instead of being blind-sided.

I'd kill you right now if I could. Heck, even a suicidebomb would be nice.

Y'know, I was writing up some reason to label it WIFOM, and then I just realized I was being stupid and there was no way to justify that at all and I'm not even sure what I was thinking.

Sorry, Webby.

I would FoS you for wanting to kill me, but it's not like that's normal Webby... *sigh*

Spoiler: Misc Observations (click to show/hide)

Gamblers I hope you didn't go the easy way out and placed all your bets on me being lynched Day 1, because that's only like a 2-in-1 chance man.

Pandar would always be my scum buddy, always.

But he isn't playing so I vote Wuba for skipping math classes.

I never skipped math classes!

LIARRRRRRR

Eduren is 90% scum.

Hey you. Ignoring my question is unacceptable.

That's not a question to ask Toaster, it's a fact I made.

You... I...

Goddammit, ToonyMan.

voting on solifuge.

Go read some tutorials and come back when you know how to play.  Solifuge isn't even votable.

No, an exemplary answer is saying screw the question and firing back. You didn't test to see the point of the question, questioner, or even why you should answer. You just answered it, bringing minimal effort and scumhunting into the entire game.

Heck, I've got a new thing we should try. It's called nothing. Let's all do nothing. Oh, want to ask a question? It has to have explicitly no purpose or relevance to the game in question. Been asked a stupid question already? Why, it's your turn down at Unintelligence to chain letter your own brand of ignorance.

[...]

So, start nit-picking lines, because there's plenty for seconds and thirds.

His question wasn't dumb, Webadict.  Mine might have been dumb in your eyes, but I know precisely what he was doing.  I know why he voted me first out of all the players here, and I know that he's probably town.  I know what answer he's trying to get, and I know which traps he set in his question to catch the unwary.

So bug off, Webby.  I may not be roasting Rysith on an open fire, but I know what I'm doing.

@Vector: Is that really the question you're going to ask Spartan? Really? Why don't you try something relevant to the game at hand, that might work better.

Yes, that's the question I'm going to ask.  I'm trying to get something done here.

I was unaware that Vector was a territorial creature.

EXCEPT that all questions can be analyzed using both sides of an alignment, so much that there is no right or wrong answer to give: Only more or less scummy answers. All answers will inevitably be used to prove you scum no matter by which alignment they were given, and hence the entire questioning schematic could be seen as more pointless than informative.

Yes, I've thought on this extensively in the past.  All questioning is ultimately pointless given idealized players, but if we are to play this game, then we must make an effort to lay our traps and create our schemas.  We craft our arguments and hope that we can stay one step ahead of the scum, and that they will not elude us even if we have laid our traps poorly.

In a word, we must be flexible, and hopeful, because if we are not we must by necessity admit that the entire game is completely pointless and largely unresolvable.  Even power roles can be rendered pointless by bastard modding or the manipulations of other players--and yet we continue to believe that something can be done, nay, that something must be done.

A game full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, run by idiots--and yet we play on.

Sorry, Pandar.  You're my favoritest mod.

So! Who do you think is scum?

I don't have much of a clue, right now--most people haven't even popped up to say hello, and my superficial skim didn't net me much.  Give me some time to reread the thread.

I was also unaware that Vector was incapable of just saying "attack scum, win victory." This has been a pain to read through.

Spoiler: Actual scum-suspicions (click to show/hide)

I still see it as pointful, mostly because I can admit to myself that there may be more layers of the trap.  I'm expecting followup questions that will expand the trap based on micro-data, and I know that no matter what initial response I gave, there will be a continuation to pry at the cracks of my defenses.

My understanding of the first stage does not imply understanding of the later stages, which are flexible in nature and far, far more difficult to analyze to death.

Hmm...

Touche.

EXCEPT that all questions can be analyzed using both sides of an alignment, so much that there is no right or wrong answer to give: Only more or less scummy answers. All answers will inevitably be used to prove you scum no matter by which alignment they were given, and hence the entire questioning schematic could be seen as more pointless than informative.

I've clearly spent too much time writing grid-puzzle AIs, or you've clearly spent too much time amongst idealized spherical mafia players, or both. Or, you're a jester and trying to be so abrasive that there's no argument against a d2 webadict lynch. Also, the early and unprovoked activation of your basement machine has been noted.

Ottorfar, Toaster: Sorry, I missed the "favorite two" rather than "favorite scumteam". My fault.

Unvote Vector, but if you could be so kind: What's your logic for not including a cult in the list, partially in light of Webadict's supposed reasonable certainty that a cult exists? Or was that included in the opposing scumteams?

Zai:

2) Depends on the game. My "fears" of different townies would change as the game progressed. At the beginning, it would also depend on how everyone was acting at the start. Right now as scum, I'd be scared shitless by Ottofar and Spartan 117.

In summary, Ottofar is scum.

That's quite the about-face and random inverse-attack on an absentee. Care to explain further?

And, to echo Webadict from a while ago, could we have a Vote Count, please, or a statement that one can't or won't be given?

So, uh. If WIFOM doesn't apply here, Webby, I'll eat my hat. Jester accusations are always sticky things, and as I recall last time we accused Webby of being a Jester, he was a townie. So here's the lesson, Rysith: Webby plays abrasively.

You've played with him before though, I'm sure, so... Rysith, watch yourself.

My expectations or estimations of alignments; town mafia thirdparty, plus a little extra forum magic

So, I'm town with a backdrop of Mafia? INTERESTING. But WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

Also, SHAD0Wdump made anyone using a post restriction instantly scummy.

This, so hard.

Though it started out as a way to be lazy as town. Or something. But then he got recruited by Mafia specifically because of his "post restriction." Or something.

Right now as scum, I'd be scared shitless by Ottofar and Spartan 117.

Mostly I wanted to see how you think, and I am stumped by your answer for #2.  Why would you be scared of them?  As you see by your quotes in the post you voted him, practically everything Ottofar says in any game is scummy.  Why wouldn't scum want a scumtell beacon to be town?

Zai:

2) Depends on the game. My "fears" of different townies would change as the game progressed. At the beginning, it would also depend on how everyone was acting at the start. Right now as scum, I'd be scared shitless by Ottofar and Spartan 117.

In summary, Ottofar is scum.

That's quite the about-face and random inverse-attack on an absentee. Care to explain further?

I am laughing so hard at you two right now, especially Rysith because he voted me for it. Being "scared shitless" by Ottofar and S117 was sarcasm. I thought it would be obvious based on who I was talking about: the two people I would probably fear the least (see Days 1 and 2 of BYOR 4 if you're still confused). I guess it was not obvious. Oh well.

But semi-seriously: Rysith, what do you mean by "random inverse-attack on an absentee"? I think I get the "absentee" part, but that doesn't make sense for you to be voting me for voting someone who wasn't here. So what? Now we can only vote people when their profile says their online? That's ludicrous, you know it, and you should feel ashamed for suggesting it.

I don't know what you mean by "random inverse-attack." Please explain.

Also, this policy lynch attempt stinks.  Why would you care if he posts in color, Zai?

It's annoying and distracting from the game. Also, SHAD0W. And it seems pretty ridiculous that he would have a post restriction that forces him to use any color, not just a specific color, or even just something as broad as "green." And it's also ridiculous that black would be acceptable as a color, especially when that's the Default-Default color. If that was the case then why start out with the eye-burning lime green?

OTTOFAR: I'm serious as all get out, man! I'm getting back to you!

Side-note: this game is fun. More fun than I've had in a Mafia game in a while. Possibly more fun than my role in BYORPE/uPick Pandar. Probably because I haven't treated it seriously so far. I've been so sarcastic at times just to see people's reactions that I'm laughing a lot(See: above "paragraph" immediately following Rysith's quote). Maybe I'll be better about treating it seriously tomorrow. If I'm on tomorrow. I'll be out of town for quite a chunk of tomorrow, and I'm not sure what time I'll get back. So I may not be on tomorrow.

You're just... yammering on about how you were being sarcastic. That's all that's here. You're just... my god, you're just spraying words about how you were joking, like you think we don't believe you.

This is just... smacking of scum, as I like to say. Golden Scum Smacks or something like that.

Any justification for that?

Since apparently Panda missed me voting ToonyMan, I'm considering that vote to be officially not-happened, which should mean I don't need to unvote when I vote Zai.

God this game is awful.

[Ottofar]

Votecount, please.

[ToonyMan]

You had a question SirBayer?

[webadict]

Unvote

I'd suggest you say the name of the person you're unvoting, as it'd make everybody's life a bit easier.

As in Unvote Mr. Person

Vote Mr. Person

STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS!

THAT IS THE SECOND TIME YOU'VE DONE SO!

I WILL CUT YOUR FACE OFF!

I'M NOT DEAD YET!

I will survive!

I dont think I am supposed to talk since I die if he is town. So yeah. I am doing town a favor. Now shush.

I die if he is town.

BLESS YOU LORD! I WILL SURVIVE!

@webadict

I still find that the way you reacted to the 3 apples question was ridiculous.

I really don't care what you think. It's still a pointless question, and I really think that whatever Vector says right now is a bunch of garbage. You'd think Vector would care more about finding the scum right now, as opposed to picking out the Town, but that's not really what I care about now.

So, why do you think it's ridiculous?

[Org]

No. Shin always dies, I just die if he is town. I do believe.

[SniHjen]

No. Shin always dies, I just die if he is town. I do believe.

Who is Shin and why does he die?


more seriously... well thats even more useless, because that sounds like a role that's made to fit with a town-alignment. (die if hit town)


so now 2 townies is going to die... great.

[Pandarsenic]

*Headdesk*

Org and SniHjen are both dead and town. Give me a second to find my USB mouse...

[Org]

Oh well. Do good, town!

[webadict]

Hm. Whelp, that'll make playing only slightly easier.

[Lonewolf I]

I am totally lost.  I'd interpreted

I dont think I am supposed to talk since I die if he is town. So yeah. I am doing town a favor. Now shush.

combined with

ERADICATE SNIHJEN

Hopefully he is scum.

to mean that Org was daykilling Snihjen and that he assumed we would lynch him if Snih flipped town.  Where did their having two roles tied together come in?

Also, Mr.Person - You out there at all?

Unvote Mr.Person, at least until he stops lurking.

webadict - Your eagerness to institute policy lynches made you my top choice for scum, and when I asked you about it you never gave me a solid answer.  Would you please explain yourself using more than just "It annoys me." as an excuse?

There are 19 roles.  Even if Pandar doesn't usually do post restrictions, I'm sure he was scraping the bottom of the bucket by the time he was finished.

[Lonewolf I]

Scratch the upper half of my last post.  I forgot Pandar was the mod, and assumed his announcement that they're dead was commentary on the game.

[Vector]

Goddammit.  Had a dream about this game where it suddenly made a hell of a lot more sense and I'd pinned Webface down as some flavor of scum.

Back later, drowning sorrows.

[Mr.Person]

You guys need to chillax. The game's only been going on for what, 2 days? And you guys are already bitching I'm gone? Broptip: I'm not going to appear more often because you guys whine I'm lurking since I'm still fucking here.

So Webadict, does Archangel's "post restriction" even matter? I mean, really? Suppose it's real. Does Archangel posting in colors hurt you or the quality of Archangel's posts? No. And if it's fake, again, posting in technicolor doesn't hurt anyone's post quality. So you and in fact everybody else, just fucking ignore the colors.

So I'm just going to slide my vote off of the late Org and vote Nolor

dwarfguy2 could be attempting obfuscating stupidity. His horrible typing elsewhere would make this a perfect disguise.

Please tell me you're not THIS stupid, Nolor. Really? I think SniHjen nailed it on the head, although I have to ask that nobody use sarcasm on the internet anymore.

Your claim that Dwarfguy2 is typing poorly in every single other post, even the ones he's made before hearing about mafia, JUST so that he can pretend to act stupid in a game is more than a little ridiculous.

Hey everyone. I know I may not be too much help with the town and all, and probably will be lynched day 1, so I think I will help town and then die. Or not. If I am lucky.

So!
Who do you think is scum, Person, Webadict, and Vector?

This post suddenly makes a lot of sense.

Nolor is my top billing, but it's still RVS for me. Maybe Webadict, but I've been wrong about Webadict before so much that I'd triple check before throwing a vote out there.

And what might that be, oh great and all powerful Vector? You don't have to answer now, but please do at some point after Spartan answers.

Are you even playing?  Do you even care about your attacks? Mr.Person, why are you such lazy scum?

I phrased it that way since asking Vector to reveal the meaning behind that particular question would make it pointless to ask. So I wanted to wait until after it was answered before the explanation came along. That's pretty much it.

Course I'm playing, I just don't have any targets at the moment since I'm still trawling the thread for things I have to reply to. Since I'm done with that AFAIK, I'm now going to go look for things to reply to.

[webadict]

I am totally lost.  I'd interpreted

I dont think I am supposed to talk since I die if he is town. So yeah. I am doing town a favor. Now shush.

combined with

ERADICATE SNIHJEN

Hopefully he is scum.

to mean that Org was daykilling Snihjen and that he assumed we would lynch him if Snih flipped town.  Where did their having two roles tied together come in?

Also, Mr.Person - You out there at all?

Unvote Mr.Person, at least until he stops lurking.

webadict - Your eagerness to institute policy lynches made you my top choice for scum, and when I asked you about it you never gave me a solid answer.  Would you please explain yourself using more than just "It annoys me." as an excuse?

There are 19 roles.  Even if Pandar doesn't usually do post restrictions, I'm sure he was scraping the bottom of the bucket by the time he was finished.

You asked me a question?

I'm pretty sure this question has been answered several times:

1) All post restrictions are fake. Pandarsenic doesn't make post restrictions. I've never made a post restriction. It doesn't add anything to the game, and only serves to distract, or other WIFOM other players. Hence, lynching him is the ideal solution.
2) Post restriction don't make roles.
3) Only an anti-Town scumbag would attempt to play off that as a post restriction. Seeing as how not adding a color tag would color the text, he's lying about it (As he can post with black or grey.) He doesn't have a set color, which is what would be a true restriction, so it either isn't a post restriction, or he's lying about what the colors do.
4) You've never modded anything this big, so you can't tell what roles there would be, how difficult it would be to make a role, or why adding a post restriction would make it a unique role.
5) Adding a post restriction doesn't make a role unique.
6) Archangel sucks in general.

As you can see, the main argument you're giving to protect Archangel is that:
1) Having a post restriction isn't scummy.
2) There is only a limited number of roles the game could include.

The problem here is that both of those are false. There have been normal games where people with post restrictions were scum, and they were the only ones pretending to have them. Even SHAD0Wdump, who wasn't scum at first, pretended to have a three words only post restriction, which was the SCUMMIEST thing in the world a town could do. He should've been lynched, then banned from playing mafia ever again.
And, you can reuse types of roles. There is no reason to add a post restriction to make a type of role different from one person to the next. I made BYOR 4 with 15 people. I could come up with plenty more roles. The problem lies in balancing all of those roles.

In fact, this can be easily solved!

Who here has a post restriction?

I do not.

Seeing as how post restrictions aren't given to only one person in a game with post restrictions, we can find the likelihood that Archangel isn't lying.

If you decide that you want to give up on defending Archangel, who hasn't bothered to defend himself against me, then go ahead. I mean, Chainsaw defense is plenty scummy.

Goddammit.  Had a dream about this game where it suddenly made a hell of a lot more sense and I'd pinned Webface down as some flavor of scum.

Back later, drowning sorrows.

Nice. Too bad I'm not scum.

[ToonyMan]

Webadict, you're using your huge ego as evidence why you are right.

No.