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[Kagus]

Sorry for the double-post, but I felt this warranted a post of its own.


Alright, so I've been experimenting again, as usual, and the current subject of my research has been EA Agartha...  In particular, bless strategies.

In the demo, Agartha is actually one of only two nations that has a non-capitol sacred unit, the other being Kailasa.  And trying to find just the right bless for the giant olmmen is a rather tricky proposition...

I just tried out a max Nature bless coupled with however many points in Air I could afford while maintaining max order and production scales (due to the expensiveness of the sacred giants).  Results were interesting...  The minor air bless helped a bit, although the giants were only retaking 8 HP per turn with 20% regeneration.  However, it did help reduce the chance of afflictions, and with the armor (boosted by going berserk) of the giants they did prove to be quite difficult to take down under normal circumstances.  The hit to defense was painful, but the boost to attack skill was highly appreciated (still not that great though).

However, while running this test I thought of something else...  I mostly had the ancient ones with spears and bucklers out holding the front line, but I'd patched in a few holes by padding resource costs with ancient hurlers, who were busy throwing rocks every which way.  And that's when I thought "Are boulders counted as standard projectiles?".  If they are, that means that the air shield from an Air bless deflects them.

So then I started thinking about what could be done with an Agarthan Air bless...  Massing ancient hurlers is much easier due to their resource cost of 1 (compared to the armored ancients, who cost 17 each), even though they cost 5 gold more.  This allows for 240 more points away from the current Nature bless I'm testing.  And while they have crap accuracy, the short range actually helps make things easier for them.  And, also, anything in the way of a boulder is going to be subject to a 28-damage attack that ignores defense skill.  Get enough hurlers out there, and the rain of stones is going to be rather nasty...

However, they don't exactly have a lot of ammunition, and when the rocks run out they'll just be left with fists.  While the giants can't do much to hit each other and can thus safely fire away at anyone engaged with other sacreds, you kinda need someone who can survive in close range long enough to pull that off.

So what do we do with that?  With trashed production scales I won't be able to make enough sacred linesmen to serve as an effective wall.  Well, then it occurred to me...   Oracles.

Oracles are big, sacred, can cast divine bless and holy avenger right out of the gate, and also have a good amount of earth magic, both for its spells and for a tiny touch of defense.

Early on, this may sound like suicide on an incredible scale, as the oracles can't defend themselves properly without a good amount of research.  But early on you can just use the sacred ancient commander as a prophet, as he's fairly decent in close range.

Later on though, once you've got the gold and research to pull off oracles on the front line, you know what kicks in?  The special effect of a high Air bless.

Air provides 75% resistance to electric attacks at high levels.  Normally, this wouldn't mean a whole heck of a lot, but guess what?  Oracles can cast a very nice defensive skill that can do a fine job of protecting their pudgy pink flesh from the blades and clubs of enemy warriors.  Ironskin.  What does ironskin ask in return?  A 75% weakness to electrical attacks.  The bless and spell would negate each other, leaving your oracles with a very respectable amount of protection along with the effective air shield.


Of course, melee would still be a weakness (not to mention trying to work out how exactly to set up placement and orders...), but I'd like to be able to fit a bit of another bless in there, either water or nature...  I haven't tested any of this yet, but I intend to.  It's not exactly fluffy, but I find the concept interesting...  Chances are, this'll only really work against independents, but hey...  It's something to test, right?  That's always fun.



EDIT:  (Initial assessment, in the middle of a skirmish against the AI)

This is actually surprisingly useful...  I did get very lucky in a lot of things (including getting awesome presence on my first ancient commander/prophet), but I've found out a few interesting things:

• Boulders are considered one-handed weapons, so hurlers that lose an arm suffer only from the -1 to strength, which doesn't mean much to them.  They can still switch between punching and throwing just as fine as they always do.
• With a bit of juggling, I managed to get a 10Air/9Water bless, which means 80% shield plus +4 defense and quickness (not to mention the shock resist).  Scales aren't as bad as they could be, and I've still got 9 dominion strength.
• 80% shield is great, but still means 1 in 5 shots makes it.  This doesn't mean much for puny arrows and the like, but stray boulders can still put the hurt on your own troops.  It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make though, because...
• Boulders provide the only way for giants to gang up on something.  In a scrimmage line situation, you can only take out as many people as you have on the front line.  With boulders, I can clear half the opposing block in one turn because the whole block of Agarthans gets to have a say in the matter.
• Hurlers don't have proper ranged-unit AI, and will thus run to engage the enemy in melee.  Only those who can't find something to punch will throw.  This is absolutely ridiculous, as even the friggin' monkeys know how to stay back and fire projectiles.
• Quickness means Agarthan punching is slightly better than it could be, but it's still terrible.  However, it also means that the whole group can keep up and throw stones at retreating forces, which means absolutely minimal survival rate for routing units.
• Even with full Sloth scales, most of my army is composed of the armored hurlers, which helps a lot because of their stupid AI.
• The first turn is a doozy.  If you're coming up against archers, you have to suffer one turn before you can get shields and protective spells up.  Prophets, being perpetually blessed, don't suffer from this and can freely be placed front and center as an arrow soak.  Otherwise, you're going to have to rely on creative tactics and items to get your hands on a good first-turn defense against archers.  After that first turn though, the battlefield is your playground.

The AI is the real pain in this setup, because there doesn't appear to be anything you can do to get the idiots to stop running straight into the arms of the enemies.  Of course, this is precisely why it helps to have that 80% air shield on all of the little blighters.

Currently, it looks like this is primarily an early-game strategy.  You can push hard due to low resource constraints, just use the starting group of non-sacred Agarthans as patrol cops and get them to milking as much glorious cash as you can.  With luck, you should be able to expand quickly enough to start reeling in the big bucks from outlying provinces before the 3 Death scales start screwing with you.  I hate taking 3 Misfortune, I really do, but it was that or Drain and I really can't afford that.  It does mean, though, that eventually you're going to run out of income as your provinces die and start turning on you.  Also, later in the game there are a number of good ways to keep falling rocks off of your head.

But as for effectiveness...  Well, I have to say I'm actually rather impressed.  For an example, take my latest battle...  I was lucky enough to wind up with a Niefelheim AI sitting across from me, one of the 'real' giant races.  I had rushed deep into enemy territory to take a victory point (which JUST HAPPENED to be the province directly adjacent to the Niefel capital...), and I had neglected to think ahead too clearly...  I needed to take this point.  If I hadn't, I would've lost the game then and there.

However, now I was sitting in a hostile dominion with 3 Cold scales and two commanders with a bunch of hurlers right next to the Niefel hometown.  This wasn't looking too good for me.

And, sure enough, the next turn I got a visit from everything Niefelheim had to throw at me.  A force of 52 Jotun militia and spearmen, accompanied by huskarl veterans from the northern front, plus the big bad boys in blue themselves...  3 Niefel giants who were looking for a fight.  Tack on 3 shapeshifters and a gygja and you can see where this is going.

The cold meant 12 extra encumbrance for everyone on my side, thanks to being the cold-blooded killers that they are.  The chilling aura from three Niefel thugs does not make a pretty couple with cold-blooded Agarthans who are too stupid to stay out of the way.  I'm facing off against an opposing force almost twice my size, that's predominantly melee, has a few really awesome units in it, and is in territory that plays absolute hell with my troops.  The results of the fight?

Friendly Combatants
commanders 2, killed 0.
regular units 32, killed 11.

Enemy Combatants
commanders 3, killed 2.
regular units 52, killed 21.


Now they've lost their troop-ferries (a couple Jotun herses), they've got people who ran into five adjacent provinces, all the shapeshifters and Niefels were slaughtered, and I've got yet another group of hurlers on their way who will arrive before they can even find all the deserters.  And with two 3-level priests sitting on a temple and preaching, we should have the dominion under our control in no time.

I had a similar fight before, where I was up against 40-some Jotun spearmen thanks to provincial defense, plus their prophet who just looooved to smite, plus a number of assorted auxiliary archers and whatnot.  I lost 6 of 25 hurlers, no other supporting troops aside from my own prophet who was too busy sitting on the front line to cast smite.  A couple of those kills were admittedly friendly fire...  But I've never seen Jotun die so quickly.

An interesting note is that this strategy isn't as effected by cold scales since ranged attacks don't incur fatigue.


Anyways, I need to toy around with it a bit more...  As mentioned I got very lucky this run, and there are a few things I'm worried about.  I've had a few good fights, but the war is yet to be won...

Yet another interesting note is that this predominantly boulder-centric strategy lends itself VERY well to sieges.  Agarthans don't eat, and boulder-hurlers count as 10 siegers each.  Oh, yeah, did I mention that the strength-enhancing spells of Earth can give hurlers an extra square or two of range?  Sadly, this still doesn't matter because they're still mentally challenged and don't care about range.  Still, it should be mentioned that Agarthan precision is actually one point higher than their attack skill, but still increases at the same rate as everything else with experience.

[Il Palazzo]

Kagus, including this one, you've written enough essays about the demo to publish a book. Buy that game already.

(also, I think that in the mod we're using - CBM1.6, the boulders have an area attack, so each one is hitting a whole square. As for the Niefel army - they sent an army composed mostly of Jotun Militia, notorious for losing every battle they're in, versus your all-sacred expedition. It's not that big of a deal.)

[Kagus]

It is because EA Agartha in general is also notorious for losing, violently.  And it's tricky to find a bless strategy that works for them.  And having around 16-17 endurance on each and every one of your lightly-armed units (with attack/defense ratings of 9 and 8, respectively, on size 4 units) doesn't make things easier for you.  And Niefel giants make everything difficult.  +2 attack and defense in the cold, and upwards of 35 damage can do a number on pretty much anybody.  But yes, morale does play a rather important part...


Anyways, I now find myself in another predicament.  Does anyone know if holding the castle in a contested province counts as far as victory points are concerned?  Or what?  Because if I need to control the province outright, I need to shove off a 90-strong army of giants...  Should be fun.  At least now the province is heavily in my dominion and we've shrugged off all of winter's chills.


Ritual spells take effect before troop movement, right?  Because otherwise, I just had the computer predict an oracle moving into another province so it could shoot an arrow into his heart.  Man, the game really has it out for this one dude...  He already had one hell of a bad roll and is now so old his arm has fallen off.  What's funny though is that the enchanted arrow only managed to do 1 point of damage, no chest injury included.

I already know fire skill cuts off a few years from the old-age limit, but I could swear I'd seen death mages pop out generally younger than those without death magic...  I need to check more thoroughly.  There are a lot of undocumented effects.


On a completely different note, I realized a long while back that with Kailasa, Bandar warriors actually make better archers than the Atavi bowmonkeys.  The reason for this being that although the stones have a shorter range, they fire two projectiles simultaneously, have more ammo, and do more damage thanks to the Bandar strength.  They actually do more damage than longbows if I remember correctly.  And, as mentioned, these dudes have the sense to sit at maximum range and wait for the enemy to come to them rather than just rush into the fray...  Even though Bandar warriors can actually hold their own in hand-to-hand combat.  I probably decided to throw that in here because it's 2:45 AM and my brain has started to short-circuit.

[Il Palazzo]

I didn't know about fire magic prolonging lifespan. Nature magic certainly does that, and my impression is that death magic helps avoid afflictions due to old age, so we've got completely different views on the matter.
There's always an option of starting some small blood economy going, and if needed be, empower and rejuvenate your most valuable old geezers(quite a lot of effort required, though).

[Kagus]

No no, fire magic skill detracts from lifespan.  Agartha is a great example of this, as the three oracle types are identical except for magic skill (and also the fact that the water oracle has an extra point of defense, plus the one(s) gained from water magic).

Most oracles have an old-age point of 400 years.  However, oracles of fire shave about 5 years off of that bar for each point in fire magic they have.  So an oracle with two points in fire magic will qualify for old age at 390 instead of 400.  This appears to be a percentage, as units with shorter lifespans are less affected by the magic.  I've got a human with one point in fire magic who will qualify for old age at 48, which seems an odd number to me (I think most humans qualify at 50).  Sorry, my writing gets a little unclear around this time.

Wasn't aware of nature magic's effect, I'll have to look into that.  I thought I remember there being something connected to dominion scales, but I don't remember ever verifying that.


Old age isn't really an issue for me right now, I've just got the one guy who was old right off the bat.  He's been progressively losing more and more pieces of himself with every conquest, even though he isn't involved in any actual fighting.   Most of my mages have quite a few years to go before cresting that hill, and even most of the oracles (oldest commanders I've got) have 30-40 years on them.  My prophet won't be old for another 235 years.


EDIT:  Alright, looks as though owning the castle in a contested province is what counts as far as victory points are concerned.  So packing a bunch of no-eaters (like Agarthans) into the tower and just sitting on the province seems to work fine (I've been a bit infatuated with accumulated-point victories).

Now with that skirmish done with, I'm going to look more at Kailasa to see what I can do with the little chittering bastards...  Hmm...

[Happerry]

To my knowledge nature magic does not directly protect you from old age, but does make it less likely for you to start getting affections from old age. At least, that's how I remember it.

[Il Palazzo]

To my knowledge nature magic does not directly protect you from old age, but does make it less likely for you to start getting affections from old age. At least, that's how I remember it.

Incorrect. It actually adds to the max age limit, and quite a hefty number of years too.

[Kagus]

I was noticing some odd age limits on a few of the people, but I have a hard time believing that just one point in nature magic grants you a 50%-100% bonus to your lifespan.  What I really need is some mage that has a random chance of getting a point or two of nature magic...

Regarding the monkeys of Kailasa, some interesting finds.  Arrows are, as usual, quite nasty against the Kailasans, but it's not as bad because at least all the Bandar warriors have bucklers and 3 points of innate protection (not to mention a healthy stock of hitpoints).  They are still light infantry though, and bucklers suck.

What's interesting is that any and all enemy units without a good shield or protection values in excess of 12 points will be slaughtered and most likely routed within the first turn of actual combat.  Anyone that makes it through the rain of stones will be subject to Bandar clubs, which...  Well, alright, so there are a few gaps in the plan.

Bandar warriors are okay.  I mean, 11 attack/defense, 14 morale, damage reaching 19 points a hit, 18 hitpoints and 3 total encumbrance isn't exactly bad, especially when they get to shave off a few points of damage each hit thanks to their naturally tough hides.  Unfortunately, they're also size 3 and cost 20 gold.

Although their natural melee prowess may make them seem like a good match for punching the daylight out of heavy infantries who have the stones to survive the preliminary pelting of...  Well, stones.  Unfortunately, they'll have one less man per square than most human-sized heavy infantry, so you're probably gonna lose a few.

You're especially going to lose a few because these gorillas are inherently stupid and will continue to throw rocks upon units directly adjacent to your arrow-fodder warriors.  I hate friendly fire.

So, yeah...  I managed to whup the tar out of the AI C'tis stronghold, and now my inflated ranks are smacking the gate around like they know what they're doing.  I've got another group scrounging around independents up north and I've got a third group of gorillas waiting in the capitol for a commander to send them into the breach.  I've got 3 Order and 3 Growth scales to eke the most precious gold out of my provinces as possible, because paying 20 gold for every pair of feet on the ground gets to weigh a bit heavily on the coffers.

I'm interested in seeing how these guys manage a siege.  So far I've been fairly impressed with how they've handled the independents.  For light infantry, they take very few casualties in the normal course of things because they can usually just whomp enemies from afar before getting into the thick of it.  It's not as astounding as a Kailasan bless strategy (quickened Yavanas...  Downright scary, man), but bless strategies are hard for these guys due to the lack of good priests.  Hell, they even lack cheap priests.


Anyways, I'm rolling along just fine in the early game of the Kailasan skirmish, so I'm going to put my Goodall studies on hold until I try probing EA Atlantis a bit more...  I need to find their strong point.

[E. Albright]

Mostly magic and thugs. Also, monster fish. If it comes right down to it, you can do some annoying things involving darkness. Other than that, just the standard marine angles.

[Kagus]

Yeah, I do think magery is the way to go with these guys, but it's tricky to get that off the ground early on.  And while the kings do indeed make for nice thugs (I did a thugging run with them a long time ago), I prefer keeping them a little back from the front lines if at all possible...  I've had royal raiding parties of several kings just line up and start tossing spells, and it is an absolute beauty to behold.  They need a lot of babying though, otherwise they get overwhelmed by their own possibilities and cast completely useless spells.

I also don't really like trying to work around king-centric strategies because they're expensive as sin and you can only ever get a maximum of one per turn...  I'm trying to figure out what Atlantians can do across the board.

Deep ones are actually kind of interesting...  For 10 gold, 7 resources you get a basic little trooper.  Protection sucks and so does their defense, but deep ones have got some truly staggering firepower available to them.

They're size 2 units with 14 health, 4 natural protection (sadly, this is their only armor), 12 strength, and the magic resistance of a small, yappy dog.

What's interesting here is that the spearmen (who have a total defense rating of 6) have some nifty qualities...  You're looking at a decent-morale unit with two attacks hopped up on 12 strength.  They're glass cannons who can absolutely massacre even the well-armored triton troopers if they can get within range.  What's more, the special basalt spears they use are considered magic weapons.  You're getting ghostbusters for 10 gold and 7 resources, build-anywhere.

Yes, you'll lose 'em like flies.  They're completely vulnerable to any sort of ranged attack and they stand still for people to punch them as much as they like.  But the extra couple points of morale help keep them on the field despite the losses, and once they get their say in a matter the argument starts to take a more favorable turn, due mostly to your opponent being quite dead and thus unable to issue a counter-point.

An interesting point of the 50% fire/cold resistance they have is that they are completely immune to both extremely hot and extremely cold environments, so they don't suffer the +2 encumbrance.  This allows you to take 3 Heat or 3 Cold without much trouble.


They've still got issues of their own though...  Of course, the grunts I'd really like to get my hands on are the warriors of the deep...  Only thing is getting the necessary resources.  And the cash.

An oddball thing is that standard deep ones have a province movement of 1, while the spear-wielding ones have 2...  I somehow doubt that was an intentional game design aspect.

[Il Palazzo]

I was noticing some odd age limits on a few of the people, but I have a hard time believing that just one point in nature magic grants you a 50%-100% bonus to your lifespan.  What I really need is some mage that has a random chance of getting a point or two of nature magic...

Look, I wouldn't lie to you(not without reason), nature magic actually adds 50% to lifespan. Here, consult the wiki:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Old_age

As for the Kaliasa, I think you're not playing them to fulfill their true potential. I've never played the demo, so I don't know if there are some limits on research.
They do have powerful priests. And uber-powerful national mages. And super-units. And supercombatants. But you need to summon them all!
Also, with all those super mages, and with masses of cheap communion slaves, you can turn your hordes of markatas into an undefeatable tank. Arrow Fend quickly lets you stop worrying about enemy missiles, Wind Guide + Strenght of Giants = markatas get so much more deadly. Later on, Army of Lead + Fog Warriors, and you're set.
In a meantime, four-armed SCs with cheaply made equipment(earth magic=dwarven hammers, later Forge of the Ancients), and teleportation/cloud trapeze/naturally flying, will win you nearly all battles.
For enemy SCs, Gifts from Heaven. For remote killing - Mind Hunt and Earth Attack.
Seriously, Kailasa is the magical powerhouse, with some markatas and apes strapped in for flavour.


Anyway, the war between Agartha and Caelum is getting really interesting. Slow-moving supercombatants versus flying raiding parties. Provinces are changing hands on a regular basis. I wonder who's going to prevail?

[Kagus]

Huh.  Well, there you have it.  And it's not that I thought you were lying, I just didn't think it could be that huge of a difference, so I wanted to test it with random-pick mages to see what the exact amount was.  I figured they were just tacking on extra years for the nature types extraneously.

Anyways, thanks for linking me to the (good) wiki, I've been looking for it lately...

As for the Kaliasa, I think you're not playing them to fulfill their true potential. I've never played the demo, so I don't know if there are some limits on research.

All of the Dominions series have demos that put a cap on research.  All spell schools can reach a maximum of level 4.  This means no umbrals for Agartha, no monster fish for Atlantis, and no national summons beyond apsaras (unarmed unarmored sacred dancer troops) and tigers (...really big cats) for Kailasa.

What's truly hilarious about this is that all AI players are exempt from the research cap.  This was more of an issue in the demo to the first Dominions, as that was the only one in the series to not have a turn limit of 40 turns.  It was also the only one that let you play all the nations, but it excluded certain troop types from being produced (Jotunheim couldn't produce vaetti, for example).  I once played a game across a large map and eventually had to just throw in the towel thanks to the enemy AI calling down global enchantments and high-level summons.


So, yeah...  No summons in the demo that have priestly levels.  That means you're stuck with the two capitol-only 360-gold level one priests to bless your armies.  As you said they're great mages, but they're crap priests.  And since neither of them have levels in astral magic, that means you can lead communions with...  Monkey gurus.

Oh, yeah, and arrow fend is a level 6 spell, so...  I also don't get that.  Yep.

[Lorak]

Sorry to ask for yet another delay, but I would like to have the turn delayed 24 hours.  I might still get around to doing the turn today, this is a "just in case" post.

(This has absolutely nothing to do with the release of Gran Turismo 5, I swear.  <_<)

[Il Palazzo]

I'm going to change the hosting period to 72h for all turns, we'll see how it works.

[Kagus]

Hrmm.  Interesting.  I was just fleshing out a story idea I had (really, I think pretty much the only thing I'd do with the full version is muck about in test games that last a maximum of 10 turns and write fanfiction), and this required me to do a little run with EA Agartha again using my standard setup.

Well, I managed to seriously piss off the RNG somehow...  Medium-sized random map, all random enemies...  I'm dead center.  To the North lies Helheim, to the East; Vanheim, and to the West; Yomi.  Due to a turn mix-up, I've managed to piss off Helheim and their helhirdings by accidentally attacking them.  Now I'm encapsulated by Helheim and Vanheim, and I just suffered three attacks in one turn.  18 points of the hilariously unhelpful Agarthan PD were wiped away by 18 units and a commander who spent the entire battle blessing himself.  They suffered one casualty.

I had an encounter with the helhirdings this turn.  My prophet and 79 militiamen were devastated by 8 of the bastards.  Through smiting alone was I able to take three of them with me, but my prophet just barely escaped with his life.  58 men died under the shimmering hooves.  Although, to be perfectly honest, I got them through a random event...  So I'm more annoyed than actually dismayed.

Still, there are three armies breathing down my neck right now.  I can't hit them, and I can't see them.  Although...  Hmm.  I wonder how trampling works against glamour...

Anyways, this should prove an interesting fight.  Haven't heard a peep out of Yomi yet.  They managed to get squeezed into a wall and can't get out, so they've had a rough early game.  Also, hey, I've got nothin' but priests right now.  Bring it, ya fat little weasels.

Vanheim hasn't done much that I can see, I'm hoping they have a border disagreement with Helheim and start sending superpowered unhittable units at each other to settle their differences.


Still, while I do have options, I really don't like the looks of this.  I've got EA Vanheim and Helheim for next-door neighbors.  Helheim's capital is quite honestly three provinces over from mine.  I haven't had time to get thuggin' yet, and pretty much any sort of hastily-assembled force from Agarthan nationals is going to be mind-blowingly pathetic.  Especially when you've got low resources thanks to 3 Death/3 Sloth...

The good news?  I've hit Conjuration 3.  I'm now spitting out 5 magma children and 1 size-4 earth elemental every turn.  It's early summer in year 2.  I also managed to find a Firbolg fortress through remote searching, in a province I'd already constructed a temple in.  It's the perfect place to start building my army of thugs.

Well, I'm going to queue up a few troglodytes to see if tramplers might be a good quikee-fix solution against Helheim...  Also, I've run into an awesome bug...  For some reason, when I bring up a commander in the 'recruit units' panel, clicking the 'exit' button will play the death sound for that commander.  Neato.