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[Kagus]

This is something that's been niggling at me for some time.

In a vast number of games (generally only those with an online component, particularly when a PvP aspect is involved), gamers will form up into groups known as "clans" and will attempt to make a unified presence in the game.

Most of the time this just results in several players giving themselves hilariously large and complex combinations of signs and letters in order to form a "tag" that they can then feel proud of, and so that they can lord it over the other people who aren't in the group already.


In general, I view gamer clans on kind of the same level as street gangs and college fraternities.  Namely, utterly stupid and definitely not something I want to associate myself with.

However, quite often there comes along a game that provides special benefits to being part of a clan.  This could be anything from a metagaming increase in resource returns or experience gain to an in-game monopoly on certain item types or availability.  I once saw a game (mod, actually) where it advertised itself as "the ultimate in clan warfare", boasting "increased support for clans".

Normally I can avoid clans and go about my merry way, but in cases like this the game essentially forces you to join a clan in order to do anything.  This adds a layer of arbitrariness (that's actually a word?) to the whole experience, because now you didn't even join up for the prestige or the company or because you felt a certain attraction to it.  You just joined up because they had beets and you needed beets.  The clan now contains another member, whose only interaction with the clan will be to get more beets.


So, please...  Would someone enlighten me as to what the hell is going on here?  Why are people attracted to clans?  Is there anybody else in the world who doesn't like the idea of joining a clan?  How do people make sense of joining five different groups?  Does anyone care?

I have no problem with being part of a group I actually respect, with people I know.  I also have no issue with coordinating efforts in order to get something unusual or spectacular done, or even just to do something standard in a short amount of time.  But signing myself up with '~{tHe-Hell-foxHes}~' because they offer marginally better rates on used turnipbeasts, or because they've got rad street creds yo? 

foxHell no.  I'm not going to sacrifice my individuality for that.



I'd love to hear some input on this, because I assume I feel this way only through not having the full picture.  There must be at least a few of you out there who're clan gamers, and I would really like to know more about the whole affair.

[nenjin]

Er...uhm....er....

Forcing people into clans. Is that the same as creating factions for games that you must be part of, as part of the game framework? Like MAG, or WoW?

Regardless, it's proven psychology that groups have a strange effect on humans. It changes our motivations, our behavior and a lot of other stuff. Somewhere in there, I'm sure there's some redeeming benefits that make just having a clan tag worth it, for someone.

Plus, clans create the appearance of a larger conflict, rather than 30 individual douches trying to out douche each other. It can actually create real cooperation if people buy into it.

All in all I don't have a problem with them. I got over being bothered by that in the early days of MP shooters. I actually find them hilarious in MMOs, especially the bad guys. Oh how I love bad buy clans. They're so much fun to hate. Nothing like the annual horde sneak attack on Stormwind on my WoW server. Like 30 rogues slip into the city and then just start ganking people. You've never seen cooperation until you've seen the Alliance respond to an attack on Stormwind. Suddenly, the concept of "the Alliance" becomes a reality, if only for 20 minutes.

[Soulwynd]

In most FPS games, clans are means for people to get together and train together and get better at playing something they like.

Of course there are douche-bag clans and stupid things like that, but most of the time, it's just a bunch of people that like playing a game or are competitive players.

[nenjin]

They are still social networks for big clans, or clans that have committed themselves to one series. Back in the day, they used to be so you could keep track of who was supposed to have your back and be working with you. Modern games with squad systems have kind of weeded out people get into clans just to have some recognizable team mates they know they can work tactically with. Now most games create that automatic assumption of team work via squads, and that's good enough for people that aren't hardcore FPS wonks.

[Nilocy]

I'm in a douche clan, called the DFC...*

Anyway, the whole mentality of being part of something bigger than yourself has always been with me ever since I start playing Planetside. Instead of clans you had outfits, these outfits organised themselves with command structures and made the game a lot more enjoyable. You got a lot more done, had a good laugh and made it a lot more enjoyable. Ofcourse, there is a flip side, most clans/guilds/outfits/corporations have their eventual fallouts and drama llama consumes the organisation. These do cause a little pain but are worth it in return for organised gameplay.

If you want to be even more perplexed by clans check Eve-online, that shit'll make you go nuts.

[Soulwynd]

The reasons I join a clan/community are:

a. Less need to go LFG spam in some channel in a given mmorpg,
b. Fun people,
c. Chicks. Nerdy chicks dig clans. /joke

[nenjin]

If you want to be even more perplexed by clans see the dark side of what clans become, check Eve-online, that shit'll make you go nuts.

Fix't.

[sneakey pete]

A lot of clans and "professional" players always give me the impression of being eliteist assholes, particurally with the more simple online shooter type games; "Omg you play on pub you noob" etc..Don't get me wrong, often clans will be comprised of good individuals, who practice together even more and become quite a force on any server and can be rather annoying. On the other hand, there's always some not so serious clans that can be good fun in every game i've played.

MMO's.. well its completely different really. Most seem to be good on them.

[Nilocy]

A lot of clans and "professional" players always give me the impression of being eliteist assholes, particurally with the more simple online shooter type games; "Omg you play on pub you noob" etc.

Depends if its their server or not.

[Sowelu]

Just replace the word 'clan' with 'team', and replace the little [STUFF] with a small custom flag image next to everyone's name.  Doesn't that change the whole mood of it all, even if the mechanics are entirely the same?

I dunno.  Gaming clans started out in Quake (someone try to prove me wrong...) as a way to make friends of similar skill levels.  Weak players tend to get thrashed, and strong players don't have much challenge--and matchmaking can be pretty hard!  (Servers were small, so you kind of had to use GameSpy to track down specific friends; if one server got popular or had a rep for having strong players, you would never be able to get in).

So you have a couple guys you like sparring with a lot, and eventually you say "Hey let's start a clan and find other people who are actually fun to play with, then recruit and train other folks we like so there's always someone around".  Soon thereafter, they started getting competitive...because if you're so great, then why not prove it?

At the very heart, though, clans (much like WoW guilds!) in their original form were social units to hang out with each other in, not to compete with others necessarily.  The tags are just there for pride, which...well, in skill-based games, it makes sense.  You're often around people in the [STUFF] clan and they're handing your ass to you on a regular basis...then eventually you start being able to dish it back out, and they decide to invite you in.  You're gonna be proud of that.

Back in the old days though, you might have like...10, 12 clan members who played on a regular basis.  And you probably had a web page, with green text on black background, and animated flames and stuff.

Clans on the MUDs I've been on are similar...okay, I'm not on hardcore RP or PvP ones, just more social monster-squishing ones, but still.  You help each other out, you spend in-game cash to get the admins to make you awesome clan-themed equipment and rooms to hang out in, you teach new players the ropes...but again, there's some level of "these people think I'm cool enough to hang out with them, and I'm proud of that".

And I wouldn't call that a bad thing.  Unless you're still doing it when you're 30.

[nenjin]

When it comes to MMORPGs or the like, I almost always join [or rather, lead.] a clan. Nice way to make friends/company. I'm always rather picky about who I let in the clan. While I see many others invite every nameless random into their clan for the sake of growth, I personally prefer a small, tight knit group of friends, essentially. Whether they're brand new players I've never met or otherwise. I've met a lot of great people like this.

Running MMO guilds is more trouble than it's worth, IMO, when you start recruiting people that you don't personally know. Yeah, you meet some cool people...but eventually you run into husband/wife teams where one is Jekyll and the other is Hyde, someone starts sleeping with someone, someone else starts appropriating resources and someone else objects, you find rules lawyers that want a charter, and everything set down in a forum somewhere, and applications and interviews. You start getting factions, power plays, people in guild hate each other but it's all smiles over guild chat, drama when you start doing things as an organized group....

I much prefer being in a guild to leading one or being an officer. Just so much RL bullshit bleeds over into game it starts feeling like a job, or day care, than an actual game.  If you like managing interpersonal politics, guild/clan leadership is fun for a while. But I haven't met the person yet that doesn't get totally burned out on it after a while, unless the entire guild is serving their agenda.

[kilakan]

really I only ever use clans/groups/teams so I know I have some team members that I enjoy playing with, but I don't play MMORPG's (except guildwars, but that is more of a solo person game) and I play a few FPS's, most notably L4d 1+2 where I have 10 friends who I enjoy playing with and we work well together because we play alot together.

[Kagus]

Er...uhm....er....

Forcing people into clans. Is that the same as creating factions for games that you must be part of, as part of the game framework? Like MAG, or WoW?

I didn't actually mean a hard force, more of a "soft force".  In essence, that your gaming ability will be crippled if you don't join a clan and gain access to their resources and connections.  So while World of Warcraft has two sides you *have* to be a part of, there are clans or guilds that will provide benefits, bonuses, or just access to pre-gathered materials that would increase your grind twentyfold if you try to go it alone.


As for as being part of something bigger, I happen to love that feeling.  Few things inspire me more than people working together, and I have no qualms with taking a subordinate or less-than-heroic position in order to further a greater cause.

However, I consider most of the clans I find in positions of authority or power to actually be a step down for me.  Instead of a group of individuals who are united by common cause and principle, it's the same bunch of hooligans as anywhere else, except now they're all wearing the same shirt.


I guess it's more that I have a problem with established clans with open-door policies.  There's no real reason for being part of that clan as there's no cohesion between the members.  But you still have to be ranked as a member of that guild in order to get the stones and tax cuts (...) necessary to advance in the game.

And in some cases, games will attempt to cut down on the number of low-membership clans by imposing strict requirements that must be met before founding your own group.  This makes the big clans bigger because A) Most people will just cave in and join one of the bigger clans rather than split off, and B) The requirements and materials necessary to start your own guild are made much easier to procure through the benefits of being a guildmember.

More and more, guilds and clans seem to be more of an economic or otherwise selfish decision, rather than a joint interest that unites people.  And when game developers dangle more and more carrots-on-sticks for clanmembers in order to raise clan numbers and thus give the illusion of teamwork, the problem gets compounded.


I'm reminded of a much smaller-scale example from my short time playing Battlefield 2 multiplayer.  Squadmembers would be granted an in-the-field spawnpoint through their leader, and the leader could call in special support from the commander.  I think you even got extra points for just being in a squad, I can't remember.

Even just this tiny little adjustment made it so that every player joined a squad.  It didn't matter that each player had at least half a mile between him and the next squadmember (spacing, dammit, spacing!) and couldn't give a damn about following orders, they were still going to be part of that squad and get those damned extra goodies.


I guess I'm just too damned principled for gaming...


Pre-post EDIT:  Damn, I think this is the fastest-growing topic I've ever posted.

[Grishnak]

Just incase this wasnt already covered, mostly because Im too lazy to read all of this topic just yet

Alot of clans are created for competitive purposes, to elevate the playing field to a more organized and difficult game. Most team oriented games and public servers are generally filled with people just there to have fun, and there is nothing wrong with that, but they generally dont play as a team. They just do whats best for them, and alot of times in pubs that works, because everyone is doing the same thing, which ends up being one glorious ununified mess. Alot of people like to take that gameplay to another step and they want to get better, and play with better people that want to work as a team.

Its just another style of playing a game. You play with people you know/got to know and you all work great as a team and most games feel like an entirely different game.  There are alot of douchebags though, that think since they are in a clan they are immediately better than any pubber, and versus most pubbers, they are generally correct, but they lose out on the best part of a game which is FUN!

TLDR;
Clans are for competitve play the majority of the time.

[nenjin]

I think you even got extra points for just being in a squad, I can't remember.

No.

Even just this tiny little adjustment made it so that every player joined a squad.

Very much no. Plenty of people go Lone Wolf in BF2. There's even a stat for tracking your time solo.

I don't mind it when the mechanic is a logical extension of what the game is offering. If they're offering squad simulation, I expect there to be benefits for it.. BF2 nailed that. Mobile spawn points not only simulated the strength of squads, they simulated the roles of squad member and squad leader.

If a game lets you band together to form cities, because that's a core game play aspect, I expect benefits in line with what game play is supposed to be about.

Some MMOs use fellowships, which are basically permanent groups of adventurers and friends that allows them to share the experiences of the fellowship while they're not able to be online. Again, that's a mechanic and a simulation that promotes grouping, but because it makes sense for the setting or genre.

It can be taken too far, like any mechanic. EVE takes it an unfun extent IMO, where co-ops are necessary to pool obscene cash totals so you can buy ship designs. Did I mention you can buy EVE credits with RL cash? Yeah. Scams abound, massive confidence scams that reached all the way into CCP itself.

On the lighter side of that, throwing out bonus XP, bonus drops and all that for grouping, not to balance having more players but just to incentivize them to group, blows. It's one thing to give more xp if xp is split among all members of the party. It doesn't make sense to do what Borderlands does, and just throw better loot at you when you have more people. It's marginally balanced for the difficulty increase, but it screws solo players and smaller groups, because the best loot becomes the gold standard and everything else is boring.

Point of fact though, we live in MP times. Mechanics should support that, and incentivize or balance the choice to group where it makes sense. The idea that MP should just strictly be the ability to play with other people, and not things that explore the MP dynamic more, is pretty damn archaic. You may consider it principled against the most extreme examples, but some of the stuff you're harping on strikes me as pretty trivial.