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Author Topic: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?  (Read 3647 times)

Tommy

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 01:08:33 am »

As others have said, despite the plethora of bugs still plaguing the game, the military and hospital systems seem to more or less behave as currently intended.  The one major hospital show-stopper I've noticed still occurring is the Two Dwarfs in One Hospital Bed bug - two injured dwarfs can still claim the same bed, with the result that neither rests, neither is fed, and ultimately one or both die of dehydration.  Deconstructing the bed and playing with burrows can sometimes force one into a different bed, but it still seems inevitable that one of them will end up dead before they sort themselves out.
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Dwarf Fortress in a nutshell. It includes dead things, parties, and getting really excited over updates.

MarcAFK

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 03:35:04 am »

A few other minor bugs i've noticed still persisting are:

-Buckets can get filled partially with different liquids, like water+lye, making them useless for anything, i'm not sure what the solution to that is other than dumping the buckets and making new ones.

-Theres no stockpile for wood blocks, solution is to quantum stockpile whenever your carpenter becomes cluttered.

-Arrows and whips are vastly overpowered and go right through masterwork adamantine armour or anything for that matter, simple matter of reducing the penetration power and raising the edge value of them in the raws,  i'm still trying to determine the best values to use that wont make them totally useless, but then again a lucky shot with a totally useless arrow should still get the throat or eyes or something.

Theres plentry of other military issues, mostly with getting them to wear and use what you want,  look for that in other threads.
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

ungulateman

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 03:56:14 am »

My problems are the non-bug annoying features, like super-skilled migrants and skill rust.

As for bugs, having an entire fortress refuse to do anything non-automatic for no reason sort of spoils the fun.
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j0nas

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 04:26:33 am »

Okay, it seems opinions differ as to the buginess of this release, but that is the way of the DF forums om general, all is well.  The reason I didn't play 0.31.12 at release was that I suspected it had a bunch of annoying bugs still in it, and was hoping a later release would fix 'em.  I think that right now I'll keep waiting for that later release, it seems there still are a bunch of bugs annoying enough to require careful oversight, and I find those pretty annoying.

Thanks for the input dwarves and dwarfettes.
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Derekristow

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 05:28:55 am »

It's not as though it's an all-or-nothing decision.  Try it out yourself and draw your own conclusion as to whether or not the new features are worth it.  If we all waited until the bugs were gone there wouldn't be anyone to find them in the first place.
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So my crundles are staying intact unless they're newly spawned... until they are exposed to anything that isn't at room temperature.  This mostly seems to mean blood, specifically, their own.  Then they go poof very quickly.

JonBrant

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2010, 11:50:57 am »

I wouldn't even say it's an opinion on the bugs. Different people have different issues(mine crashes 2-3 times an hour randomly) , and that's probably why they're still in the game; they're hard to track down. You get a game of this size as compatible as it is, yeah, that's a lot of possibilities for bugs. It's amazing it's as stable as it is... this complex and one guy
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Flaede

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2010, 01:09:40 pm »

Buckets can get filled partially with different liquids, like water+lye, making them useless for anything, i'm not sure what the solution to that is other than dumping the buckets and making new ones.

Forbid the thing you don't want in the bucket/barrel, contrive to get the bucket/barrel moved (to a stockpile if possible, or to the depot "to trade"). the forbidden contents will be on the floor, no longer in the bucket/barrel.

It's a horribly kludge of a workaround, but it means that the bucket/barrel isn't a write-off.

My big annoyance is that if there is any soap that isn't stored in the hospital coffers the entire soap cleaning system stops working. (otherwise works fine)
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Khift

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 01:38:09 pm »

Make no mistake, this game is still riddled with bugs. However, the worst of the worst have been mostly weeded out, and the ones that remain can either be worked around or simply ignored. It's not pleasant by any means, but if you're persistent and resourceful you can find a workaround for most every bug you'll encounter, even if that workaround just hides the bug.

Some of the big issues:
- Military still has some large bugs. Kill orders don't function well at all, and the (s)quads screen in general is very clunky, unresponsive, and generally lacks functionality. Use it like a bludgeon and it works well enough, but if you need fine control don't expect it to perform.  Equipment works well enough now for melee dwarves, although it is slow and may take a dwarf multiple activations to finally get his uniform right. With regards to training, in a 10 dwarf squad dwarves will progress so slowly it may be a bug, but in a 3 dwarf squad it actually moves along at a brisk pace -- most likely that is just a tuning issue. Militarily, though, marksdwarves have the lion's share of the remaining bugs. There are numerous bugs with regards to marksdwarves that still need to be hammered out. Most of these can be worked around, but just be warned that getting them to function in .31.12 is not for the faint of heart.

- Healthcare works well enough. Apply cast is broken almost completely; on rare occasions a dwarf will successfully apply a cast, but the vast majority of the time a bug involving drawing water from the well for his cast will stop him dead in his tracks. Workaround is to never supply gypsum plaster and instead make them use splints; these accomplish the same thing and work just fine. Surgery occasionally bugs out still, but this is rare. The one time I encountered it I locked the surgeon in the room with the patient and he finally completed surgery after almost 5 years of him starting it and then cancelling in the middle of it. One huge bug that remains, however, are crutches -- they're never used, so if a dwarf loses the ability to stand he never will again. The only workaround to that is magma. Infections also appear to be buggy, although what the bug is is unclear. It could just be that a fixed infection never takes it's tag away, leading to lots of left over infection tags on dwarves that go in and out of the hospital. Or maybe infection never kills dwarves. I don't know. Something is up for it, for sure.

- Cleaning is completely and utterly busted. The only cleaning job that functions at all any longer is the cleaning of smoothed or engraved floors. No other form of cleaning ever occurs. If a dwarf gets blood on his clothes or armor, it stays there until he wades into water and it washes off. Then another bug occurs that, when the water pushes the contaminant, it starts multiplying like mad. Next thing you know a single spatter of blood on a single dwarf has covered the walls and surface of an entire body of water. Even worse, if it's a well the blood will actually come up the well and out into the fort. It is quite disturbing, to say the least. Either way, the biggest issue with cleaning is that it's actually a large FPS drain. Keeping track of dozens of pages of contaminants per dwarf takes up a significant amount of memory and processing. The only solution I have found is nonstop use of dfcleanmap.exe, which comes from the DFHack library of tools, alongside a bath house that is permanently submerged in 3/7 to 4/7 water and designated as a meeting hall or statuary. This works fairly well in my experience. And when I say constant, I mean constant; the moment I see blood I use it lest the blood begin to multiply and contaminate more dwarves' clothing.

- Ownership is completely busted at the moment. Clothes that a dwarf arrives with are owned by the dwarf and no other dwarf may touch or move them, but once they become threadbare the dwarf will discard them on the floor -- yet the discarded raiments are still considered 'owned', so they cannot be moved. For the most part this is harmless although annoying, but occasionally one drops his threadbare clothes on a tile with a door in it that needs to be forbidden during sieges, acting as the proverbial 'monarch butterfly corpse', so to speak. The only workaround for that in particular is to notice it ahead of time, deconstruct the door, then reconstruct it in the same spot -- this will cause the hauler dwarf to move the clothes one tile away so they no longer prop the door open. As for working around the massive litter of clothes you end up with, well, your choices are to ignore it, use (d)-(b)-(h) to hide the clothes (they're still there, just you can't see them), or to apply magma. Another related issue with ownership involves dwarves claiming food and then not eating it. The claimed but uneaten food will then be placed somewhere, often in the dwarves' rooms but for some reason they love to put them on armor stands as well, and then the dwarf forgets about them. The food cannot be moved because it is owned, the owning dwarf won't eat the food, and eventually it rots away, producing miasma if outside. It is annoying, to say the least.

- Nobles are also very buggy at the moment. The appointment of a baron and his subsequent promotion to count and duke are very difficult, although possible, to achieve -- a workaround is possible, but you have to know what it is. Additionally many of the noble positions simply do not appear any more; of key note is the dungeon master, who is completely MIA. Inheritance of hereditary positions (Baron/Count/Duke and Monarch) is either uncertain or outright broken. Addtionally, if you do actually become the mountainhome and get the monarch to arrive, diplomats and liasons simply disappear; no more trade agreements can be made and no more meetings ever occur. You can't even tell the elves off when they ask you to stop cutting down trees, because they never ask. Collectively these issues add up to make the nobles system very unreliable and ultimately broken. It isn't a core, necessary feature of the game so it can be ignored, but it's still annoying. Also, for the DM, the workaround is to replace all [PET_EXOTIC] tags with just [PET]. Here is a mod that does just that, although you have to gen a new world for it to work: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59411.0

- Beds. Dwarves will sleep anywhere. Even in the hospital. This leads to nonstop "slept without a proper room recently" thoughts. Tables work similarly, although less severe. Any table in the fort could be used, including the operating tables in the hospital. In my fort this lead to so many "complained about a lack of chairs" thoughts that I just said screw it and put chairs next to all of the operating tables. If they want to eat there, I say let them. I hope they get an infection and die. Or not, because infections (probably) don't work anyway.



There are many, many more bugs than this. These are just the major ones. No one bug renders the game unplayable, thankfully, but there are more bugs in this game than there are in my city. It's just a matter of how severe, and whether or not you can deal with them.
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Vercingetorix

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 03:43:19 pm »

The problem with kill orders seems to be path related; I've had no problem using them to kill, say, elk birds or giant olms that wandered in to the fort and are right near the barracks but it's next to impossible to give a kill order to a squad that's only moderately removed from its target...they drag their feet and often never even make it out there, or if they do they arrive one or two at a time and get slaughtered.
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Flaede

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2010, 05:10:43 pm »

Khift, I have no trouble getting dwarves to clean themselves. The issue is the soap. If it's not all in the hospital coffers, then cleaning goes stupid. My surface map cleans itself when it rains just fine, which was one of the annoying bugs in the earlier versions.

The owned clothes thing is less of a problem than in 40d. In 40d the clothes are torn off by wrestlers and never moved. Among other things. People found ways to make their entire barracks be bridges over magma in order to solve the clutter! (pull the "clean barracks lever" *foom* no more problem) At least in this version armydwarves can take time out to put away their clothes without you removing them from the army.

The problem with kill orders seems to be path related; I've had no problem using them to kill, say, elk birds or giant olms that wandered in to the fort and are right near the barracks but it's next to impossible to give a kill order to a squad that's only moderately removed from its target...they drag their feet and often never even make it out there, or if they do they arrive one or two at a time and get slaughtered.

If you tell them to (m)ove first, then (even right away) switch to telling them to kill, it often works fine. Other than in that case, you should always clear old orders before giving new ones. Outside of that, I haven't had any trouble with the squad menu as of 31.12.

Basically, there are ways to make sure almost all the bugs are removed from immediate concern, but they are annoying to have to remember, and the few that there aren't workarounds for (NOBLES OMGWTF, and what is it with tables and beds?!) are that much MORE annoying because you are doing all this extra remembering to make other stuff work.
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MaDeR Levap

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 12:07:28 pm »

There are a few folks here that seems to live in alternate universe. Military, hospital completely bugless? Yeeeahhh riiight.
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Ieb

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 12:18:54 pm »

They work for the most part. You CAN have surgery happen but I think you had to forbid all tables in the fort for that. I think that's what finally got my surgeon to get started. Still took a while but hey, it did happen. Props to that.

Military still does some odd things. Keep running to the stockpiles to change their chainmail, pick up the same one and run away. Sometimes they return right away. Mindboggling, but it might be because of the order for them to wear two at the same time. Which they can. They just... I don't know. They're just being dorfs.

Crossbowers mildly annoy me. They keep using metal bolts to train with, even when there's crappy bone and wood ones. Then again, it's not THAT big of a deal, either wait for them to train up with the crappy bolts before you make metal ones, or forbid those upon creation.

Or maybe I just failed somewhere along the line of designating what ammo they should use. Whatever.

So yeah.

It's reasonably bugfree, they can be worked around with. With the hospital things though they take time. A lot of time. Like the doctor has nothing to do but sit on his ass for some reason while there's patients waiting for someone to stop the bleeding. That's annoying too, but you can always just hire more doctors. I think that fixed the problem for me. Only one guy dead to infection in all forts so far(all have had their fair share of accidents) and that was an idiot who returned to spar right after the doc started diagnosis.
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thijser

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 12:31:16 pm »

The only bugs I saw in .12 were dwarfs sharing beds and dwarfs who got wounded and healed again before there was a hospital in my fort end up resting till they die of dehydration with no way to cure them, still it's easy to fix just point out a hospital the moment you have a wounded dwarf.
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Caldfir

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 02:37:07 pm »

There are numerous bugs with regards to marksdwarves that still need to be hammered out.

Anyone else laugh when they read this?
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monk12

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Re: 0.31.12, reasonably bug free?
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 05:34:54 pm »

I think the real question here is what you consider to be "reasonably bug free". I've considered DF to be reasonably bug free for a few versions now; I have had few or no crashes in my games, the military slices and dices the way I expect it to (though with perhaps a bit more micromanagement than I'd like), and the broad strokes of the game are very playable.

If you consider "reasonably bug free" to mean that all core gameplay mechanics are bug free, like the military or healthcare, then you'll likely be irritated by the fact that dwarves don't hang in their on beds, and that soap is finicky, and nobles are erratic in their appearance and the DM is still a rarity. It is still not  the level of polish you may be familiar with from 40d, depending on your priorities in building a fortress.

If you consider "reasonably bug free" to mean that there are no important bugs experienced by many players, then DF is nowhere near that level of polish and likely never will be. Every release Toady adds to the game, and these additions lead to new bugs that replace the old squashed ones. This will likely be the case right up to version 1.0, may the day come ever swiftly.
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