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[Mephansteras]

Jim Groovester inscribes Purple runes of Water in the air above Org to give him additional Healing
Jokerman-EXE inscribes Goldenrod runes of Water in the air above Org to give him additional Healing
Vector inscribes White runes of Air in the air above Solifuge to give him a Speed Boost


Set-up phase ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

[Jim Groovester]

@Jim:

As far as "rocketing out of the gate" goes, I'll have to admit that I've never paid much attention to the Wizard Duels previously, and thought my behavior was basically normal (especially because I was already pretty sure of which contestant I favored)

Meh.  It was definitely a mistake, but I didn't know it at the time.

... Yeah, that's it.  Sorry, Jim, but your attempts to sling mud all over me are not going to keep me doing from what seems right.

Assist Solifuge's speed with Wind.

Mistakes I can deal with. I also don't understand what you're apologizing for.

Blah blah obligatory mention that I still don't like your meta argument on Org blah blah.

She Assisted and withdrew. Moreover, you haven't answered how this condemns me, rather than her.

True, but she didn't change her opinion on who to assist.

As for how it condemns you, it made a lot more sense yesterday. Now that I've got a better read on Vector and now that the speed she rushed to assist you with seems more like a mistake and not an attempt to get rid of Org really quickly like it initially appeared, I suppose it doesn't really condemn you at all.

Whoops.

Apparently you missed This Too. It was a damned reaction test. I even noted that you were quick on the uptake too. You must have noticed, since you attempted a deception of your own right after I did. Can I spell it out any more clearly, or will you manage to ignore this too?

In case you haven't noticed, I am exceedingly blunt and direct and not much one for subtlety. I generally state exactly what my opinions are with no room for misinterpretation. People who do not follow this pattern confuse me, so I ask them to clarify. You did not, instead opting to gush about your stupid kitten. This annoyed me and led me partially to suspect you, because it looked like you were evading a question.

Again with your mask of feigned ignorance! I'd included the argument in the original post, and figured it was perfectly legible. I was being spiteful when I offered to be redundant. See This, and This. You yourself even agreed that you were playing the same way as you did in Wizards 3, when you pulled a Cabal Victory.

I never claimed I was playing the same way I was in WD3. I was claiming that I'm playing the same way I do in every single town game ever.

You're comparing me against one reference where I played as scum and did a half decent job. You're essentially suspecting me for doing a good job of looking like town, which might be the case because I am town.

This is what I wanted to know when I asked you for evidence. Was there anything specific in my playstyle you noticed in WD3 that made you suspect me, or is the way I'm playing right now look like every time I play a game of mafia? You're the one who suspected me for this, so I'd expect you could come up with an example or two demonstrating your point. But nope. Nothing.

So what am I supposed to think about that? The natural course of action is to assume you are spewing bullshit until you can prove otherwise.

Suspicion shouldn't stop. You don't have the luxury of stopping suspicion of anyone unless you're Cabal. Congratulations, you've graduated Mafia 101. Gold star.

If you don't have any specific point to argue there's no need to slip in something spiteful.

Actually, when I'm pointing out how your argument is entirely fabricated, through your own use of duplicity and twisted words, then yes, as a matter of fact, it does strengthen my case... which, in the event that you forgot it too, is against you and your argument. As the great prophet once said: ¹⁴Herp Derp (Book of Org)

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore on this one.

Jim, please start double-checking your own opinions and feelings before you proclaim them as fact, and if, on the off chance that you're Tower, I ask you to pause for a second and think for a moment that you may be mistaken. Also, I would appreciate it if you checked yourself, and substantiated your arguments with quotes, links, or anything. It's getting annoying to have to track down your actual posts, and link them for you. And fact-checking yourself would save me the time of having to point out your logical errors here, which you appear to be clinging to now as a matter of stubborn Pride.

NEVAR!!!

Actually I'm way ahead of you on the whole doubting myself thing right now. Also, screw you. I'll play the game how I want, and I don't need a lecture on linking and quoting.

If I think it would be appropriate I usually link and quote anyway.

If we lost Org we would lose out on his herps. If we lost you we would lose out on adorable kittenness.

Since the beginning of the vote phase, have I gone out of my way to mention my mind-shatteringly adorable kitten at all? Have my arguments been laden with photos of her and her little paws? Have I talked about how she just learned to poop in the litterbox all by herself? Have I waxed poetical about the little wobbly pounces she makes when she goes after an ant or house centipede?

Yes, but that was just now. The last time I mentioned her was about 130 posts ago (Janus asked for a pictures or he would vote me more recently, which I obliged). More importantly, If you run a thread-search on the term Kitten, you've talked more about her more often than I have at this point. Please don't continue to drag the wee missus into your arguments as though she was relevant, and put up your dukes already.

When you use your kitten as a tongue-in-cheek response to people's suspicions it becomes an issue no matter how adorable it is.

Stacking the same type is better then a bunch of smaller ones correct?

Yes, that is correct.

[Org]

Solifuge: Noted.

Org:  Do you have anything to say on your behalf other than herp or derp?  Soli's laying out a well reasoned defense.  I'm not sure how much I buy it, but it's hard to see anything from you.  Are you complacent in the assists you've already received?

Leafsnail, have you forgotten about the game again?  You claimed Org was definitely scum:  what do you think of Solifuge?  Has your Org opinion changed?  If you're sure as you seemed you were when you voted, why haven't you assisted yet?

Jeez guys. I post a bit, then to bed and school. I cant be on here 24/7! I also have work later.
I am neither complacent, just unable to issue any statements since yesterday.

Not much else I have to say other than Vector is scum. Pretty sure I have already laid out part of a defense against my main opposition. And then Vector still goes with Soli. If not blatant buddying wasn't there already. Oh, how obvious Vector was! How transparent. Really, once you assist someone at the first five minutes of the start, it is kinda suspicious.

And jeez Jim! Yeah, taking a bit, maybe a little buddying but whatever, excusable. Noone helps Org usually. ...Eh.
I wasn't even gone for a day, just chill.

[Solifuge]

Just lost my post to a short power outage. Once more, with feeling.

When you use your kitten as a tongue-in-cheek response to people's suspicions it becomes an issue no matter how adorable it is.

I feel a difference in my bones.  Though in general I'm not a gut-player, this time I feel something.  There is a difference.  Not one that I can establish via some large body of evidence, but I sense that something new is there.

I feel a difference on my right knee. Though in general I'm not a sentimental person, this time I feel something. There is a difference. One that is established via some small body of sleeping kittenishness, and I sense that something friggin' adorable is there.

How else do you respond to an argument based on non-specific gut instincts? I fell back on my standard recourse: humor. It's also the only reason I saw that was making me uncommonly happy, aside from the fact that the game was starting, and I've been wanting to get in on one of these for a while. Believe it or not, the cat thing was entirely relevant at one point.

In case you haven't noticed, I am exceedingly blunt and direct and not much one for subtlety. I generally state exactly what my opinions are with no room for misinterpretation. People who do not follow this pattern confuse me, so I ask them to clarify. You did not, instead opting to gush about your stupid kitten. This annoyed me and led me partially to suspect you, because it looked like you were evading a question.

As you've noticed without directly mentioning (hello there Irony, my old friend), I tend to take a subtle approach... or at least I like to think I do. This is a game in which players are always concealing things (whether out of strategy or paranoia), so when I scumhunt, I'm trying to bait people into betraying how they mentally approach the game: who they trust, who they are concerned about, how they feel about the game, what they know, and what they think they know. It's not a perfect science, and I'm far from always right... but it's hard enough to spot that, no matter how deceptive scum think they're being, they always betray little things, little chinks in their armor, that let me build a case.

I leave breadcrumbs in my posts too. When I'm baiting a trap with myself, I tend to hint at my intentions beforehand, so I can point back and prove that it was premeditated if things go south... and I can set up contingencies to point them out with other people, if I think I'm going to die. I also slip some clues about what I know as a player, so that the Town, who are scouring over posts for clues much more than Scum, will be more likely to find them. I'm probably being obscure and/or pretentious with it... but I know it helps me play the game, and I've seen it work. I think I got at least one message across so far this game, but I'll have to wait for later to confirm that.

Even so, I need to address how I communicate with people. I own the fault for being too obscure, which is partially why I'm in the Arena right now. I have the same trouble when public speaking, in that I tend to assume people already know more than they do, and default to giving people the benefit of the doubt. Again, it's probably some kind of optimism or arrogance on my part.

Nobody ever gives Org a break. So I guess I felt sorry for him, especially since I don't agree with any of the arguments against him this game.

It does bug me that I appear to be doing Org's work for him. I stuck my neck out for him and he just disappeared. Fucking Org.

I feel a bit off about being pitted against Org too. There are a handful of First-Day lynchees, and Org often gets shoehorned into the spot, (I wish it didn't happen, as I'd actually like to play a full game with him at some point), but right now I'm in something of a Natural Selection moment. If there were a way to allow him to survive and prove his case without me dying, then I'd take it. However, given where we are, my brain is determined to see that I wind up on top. Survival instinct, as adapted to online entertainment. Being Civilized is kinda weird sometimes.

Stacking the same type is better then a bunch of smaller ones correct?

This is true in most cases, except if you think you know the player's Affinity or Role. Giving an Assist with an element that matches the player's Affinity, and gives a +1 for matching the Assist type's element grants a +4 Bonus, instead of +2 or +1. If you think you know the player's Role, matching your Assist type to any suspected Role can be good too... or providing enhancements that match or counter the enhancements given to an opponent who you don't want to win.

I've been meaning to list Affinities/Assists and Combat Effects, with some sample combat probabilities for people. I could offer it as a bribe if I survive the day in the Arena... but that'd be petty and silly.

...so naturally I think I'm gonna do just that. You rubes can figure it out on your own if I die.

[Lonewolf I]

Assist Org with a defensive earthen barrier.

Neither Org nor Solifuge is striking me as scummy, and I see more value in this first battle in watching where the assists fall and in what order, and analyzing them afterwards.  I choose to go along with Org's claim mainly out of curiosity.

[Solifuge]

Ah well... one can always dream of a world where people read.

[Jim Groovester]

Lonewolf I, I note that you don't think Solifuge is scum, but you were one of the people voting for him. Care to offer an explanation?

So what then? It's all some big mistake that you and Org are in the ring?

*sigh*

It probably is.

You still haven't gotten around to addressing what I'm really concerned with. You know, making an inaccurate meta argument against me. So long as you don't address that I've still got something on you.

[Solifuge]

Nah, I think I'm exactly where I should be... though I'd rather it had gone differently. C'est la mort.

Anyway, at this point you can't change a thing about your Assist, Jim, and I've got enough odds stacked against me that I don't think my answer will really be necessary.

But I'm a stubborn thing, so I'll bite. What exactly would you like me to address?

[Jim Groovester]

The meat of it is here:

You're comparing me against one reference where I played as scum and did a half decent job. You're essentially suspecting me for doing a good job of looking like town, which might be the case because I am town.

More general ranting about it is in that same post. It's a pretty nonsense argument if you ask me, but you're clinging to it so I've gotta know what the deal is.

[Lonewolf I]

I don't think anyone is scum at this point, and both Solifuge and Org have a tendency to not be useful.

[Jim Groovester]

What about when the deadline rolled around? What were your thoughts on Solifuge then?

[Solifuge]

I feel kind of like Darwin might have on his deathbed, being pushed to seek absolution with God after having denounced the Church. You're fairly certain I'm going to be beaten today, but you're also suspect me to be Tower, or know me to be Tower (as Cabal). Either way, you don't want to be remembered as the one who led the charge on me, championing Org in this fight, and you don't want my last words to be ones condemning you. You're trying to pressure me into calling off my suspicions, to preserve yourself.

I know you to be a capable actor, despite this Straight Man persona you're trying to create. The difference between you and I, however, is that I've admitted to it. I've not studied your entire Mafia history, but in the most relevant example I could find (Wizards 3) you were convincing enough to have been able to fool the Tower into thinking you one of them, and once a Cabal victory was secured into leading your teammates along in such a way that you could betray them and win. Regardless, it's true that Scum who are really good at appearing to be Town can be tough to distinguish from the Townies they hide among... but that isn't a defense. It renders things Neutral at best.

In my opinion, it's too late for you to avoid catching flack for this. You've ridden your argument too hard and too far, incensing most every player against me, and ignoring pages of rational discussion on my part to do it. You're good at convincing people, I give you that... but I am not, and cannot be certain whether you are Tower or Cabal. Had I the luxury of it, I'd be keeping a close watch on you for the rest of the game... but I presume that'll be up to everyone else.

We've both been butting heads since the start, but I believe that, now that tempers have cooled a bit, we've actually been trying to understand one another rationally... I'd be willing to give you a chance to prove yourself through your future actions, but consider you worthy of a Finger of Suspicion. I can easily see this whole last day being part of a Scum routine to save your hide, when you knew you were in a terrible position... but I don't think either of our arguments were substantial enough to really be deserving this much stubborn adherence.

However, you're not the one in the ring. Good luck.

I don't think anyone is scum at this point, and both Solifuge and Org have a tendency to not be useful.

Lonewolf, I find the fact that you can write that and not find your own words absolutely absurd to be hilarious. Good luck to you to.

[Lonewolf I]

My thoughts were:

Cute kitties!

And then I was serious again, and I saw that I missed the deadline and started analyzing the drama around Vector's early assist.  Solifuge was never scummy in my mind, and my vote on him was very much non-random RVS, motivated by his typical lurking and general uselessness rather than suspicion.

I'll pick my attack on Jetsquirrel back up when the next vote stage starts, assuming no one else (looking at you, Vector) does anything suspicious during assists.

I don't think anyone is scum at this point, and both Solifuge and Org have a tendency to not be useful.

Lonewolf, I find the fact that you can write that and not find your own words absolutely absurd to be hilarious. Good luck to you to.

Thank you.  I fail to see the absurdity.  I am not one to pass judgement quickly and without reason.  I've become accustomed to the rapidity with which people begin to declare each other scum, yet I see no reason to allow myself to be caught up in the emotion.

[Solifuge]

The absurdity comment is colored by my frustration... but still. I'd like to think that the discussion I've provided through the game up until this point, including the hour or so I've spent just today, providing rationale, suspicions, and reasoned arguments to be slightly more helpful than the good Baron von Herpderp's 5 second "Nuh uh!" or "Uh huh!" posts, which he graces us with maybe once or twice per day, before vanishing into the night.

What do you consider valuable discussion, and what do you consider useless discussion, Lonewolf? I'm honestly curious.

[Leafsnail]

Horrible misrep alert.

I don't like this. I'm very much tempted to assist the hell out of Org right now because of this.

You don't address the problem of you being presumptuous. Further absent is any mention of Org's alignment.

Apparently to you the reason to assist Solifuge is because you think no one is going to help Org, which really tips me off about what the actual purpose of your vote on Org was. Not that you think he was scum but that you think he'll be easy to eliminate in a duel.

Absolute bullshit.  In its purest form.

I was quick on the draw because I saw the duelists and basically went "Well, I think it's clear that Solifuge is town and Org is scum, so I'll assist the former."

Whether or not you agree with the reasons, Vector stated clearly that she assisted Solifuge because she thought Org was scum and he was town.

But no, you take a quote unrelated to that motive out of context in order to horribly misrepresent someone elses positon, and at the same time justify assisting obvscum for no reason.

Nice work.

And I'll even bet that you and Solifuge's little verbal skirmish was just a cover to distance yourself.

I am hella tempted to assist Org right now.

Craplogic followed by craplogic.  Awesome.

Meta arguments suck. Screw you and Solifuge for trying them.

If you've got a better way of reading Org, I'd like to hear it.

Assist Org with Water Healing.

I've been getting my own reads, Vector, and it seems to me that Solifuge and you are buddying awfully hard. You start with some very pointed accusations and insist that you're getting a strong scum read. You point out that he's accusing Webadict who's not even in this game and that's a slip. You say his act of being charming is a sure sign of scummitude, yeah?

Then...he votes you, and you decide that he now seems like pissed-off Town. Really, Vector? Just like that, all those slips you pointed out and insisted on, you just drop them after one post? Immediately after he votes you? I can't be the only one seeing a problem here.

Yeah, scumteam members, who already know each other's alignments, buddy each other.  Awesome.

Oh god, you need to die just to get rid of this mindnumbingly hideous logic.

"You're jumping on Org for not being Org, and assumed others would do the same (which is a scumtell because...?).  May I remind you that people who vote Org for being Org are often scum(??)"

but im not good at scum hunting! In wizard duel 1 i somehow made it to the end and then fucked up badly

Wasn't a scumhunting error.  That was a "Not shooting someone who was confirmed scum from your POV" error.

It's debatable whether or not setting up battles to find scum tells is actually helpful at all. I don't really think it is. For one, you're counting the winner of a battle as a scum tell for winning, which is a problem if you don't actually have scum in the ring. A frequent problem the town ran into previous Wizard Duels.

This way, if Org wins, it won't be a big mystery how he won, and we can get back to looking at what he actually did instead of interpreting flavor text. What will be a mystery is how you win, however, with two assists going against you.

I understand why you're rolefishing for a battle role - I mean, it'd be a pain for cabal to be left one on one with an archmage, eh?

At the time assisting Org was more a reflection on what I think of Org, not on you. I saw an attempt to get rid of him quickly, which I didn't think was warranted or even deserved, so I pushed back at the people I thought were responsible. If I called him scum or strongly implied that he was, I was being honest with what I thought at the time. But my opinion quickly changed, because things were happening very quickly.

So... Vector places a vote too "quickly" against Org.  This justifies you placing a quickvote in the opposite direction... somehow?  On someone you thought was scum?

Leafsnail, have you forgotten about the game again?  You claimed Org was definitely scum:  what do you think of Solifuge?  Has your Org opinion changed?  If you're sure as you seemed you were when you voted, why haven't you assisted yet?

Answers are, respectively: No, probably town, no, that question contradicts your first you useless question generator.

Assist Solifuge's defence with earth.

Org still seems to care a lot more about what others think of him in this game.  In other words, he is exactly like he was in Paranormal 16.  He doesn't want to be lynched, and that is his primary motivation.

Jim Groovester's logic is abysmal (and his alignment cabal), and Jokerman's following isn't much better.  I would like to see the two of them duel tomorrow.