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[Soadreqm]

I think criminals mostly use crowbars. Cheap as free and probably makes less noise than a shotgun. Or just break a window. Kicking usually works in movies, but Hollywood has some pretty flimsy doors. And the fire department uses axes. Here's Johnny! >:D

As for shooting locks open, I think I saw a Mythbusters episode where they tried it on padlocks. I think the result was that if you use a big enough gun to actually damage the lock, it jams rather than opens. Breaking a wooden door by shooting at it sounds like it might work a bit better.

By the way, how do pick other kinds of locks? like those hemicylinder-locks with the little rotating plates inside. These. Finnish doors have these pretty much exclusively. How do they work?

[nenjin]

I haven't tried picking anything other than your standard rotating cylinder lock. Those look like they're just designed for deeper keys, and require all tumblers be engaged all at once to be opened. (How it works normally is you force one tumbler and rotate the the cylinder slightly so it locks the tumbler in place, As you keep forcing tumblers, the cylinder rotates ever further until it unlocks.)

Haven't messed with lock picking in a while though. Now that they have lock picking guns, you have to appreciate the art of it, or be broke, to do it with standard picks.

[Kusgnos]

By the way, how do pick other kinds of locks? like those hemicylinder-locks with the little rotating plates inside. These. Finnish doors have these pretty much exclusively. How do they work?

That thing looks like a beast. I wonder if it's even pickable.

Further research shows that people who know how to lockpick like these locks as security, because they're apparently nigh-impossible to pick. Only known way, say some, is to use a decoder. :|

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Well, interior doors are usually flimsy as hell and meant more for privacy than security, whereas doors leading outside are usually tougher. Except when they're glass...

the round disperse into a harmless powder after fire.

Wow, that's crazy. That it can go from a deforming round to nothing. What's it made of?

That sounds more or less like what all frangible rounds do: they shatter on impact, causing anything from superficial scratches to catastrophic mutilation, with essentially no penetrative power. Kind of like super hollowpoints that could be stopped by a thick jacket and a little luck.

Professional hitmen, bro.

I thought they slipped into your house by picking your lock during the day, so they can be sitting your favorite chair when you walk in, and then shoot you in the face.

Forced entry with a shotgun sounds like more an assault on a fortified position than a professional assassination. Put another way, how many crime scenarios can you think of where people go to apartments and houses and blast their way in just to rob the place? Not very many that I can think of. That sounds more like, I dunno, Heat where they're getting revenge on people, an over-the-top mob hit on safe house, or an attack on a rival gang's stronghold.

Definitely not like a smooth, professional hitman though. That kind of reeks of Hollywood to operate that way.

I can't imagine that would work on an actually fortified position though. More like a locked but otherwise normal door. Might be a good way to break into an occupied room though, if you're going to be shooting anyways.

[nenjin]

That sounds more or less like what all frangible rounds do: they shatter on impact, causing anything from superficial scratches to catastrophic mutilation, with essentially no penetrative power. Kind of like super hollowpoints that could be stopped by a thick jacket and a little luck.

Well, either they fragment or they mushroom. They don't just vanishes into particles. So I'm curious what it's made out of if it really does do that after impact.

[Soulwynd]

Btw, unless your door is really crappy, shotgun/pistols will not really do much to it. Good, solid wood doors will stop most pistols and will make shotguns shoot a few times to get past it.

This is, for all intents, a crappy door's reaction to slugs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GB0VK7e350
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwKQZsC8RiI

And these are good doors:

http://www.rhinovault.com/ballistic_doors.htm

Plus there are anti-breach systems that plate the knob, hinges, and frame.

So you might want to consider that.

[nenjin]

I watched a few breaching videos before posting here, including one with troops in Iraq breaching residential doors.

In general, those standing door tests are shit even if you're trying to prove how hard door breaching is, because it doesn't have the support of the rest of the wall. In that one video, the dude is 10 feet away, so I'm not sure what they're trying to prove, other than a shotgun blast at 10+ feet won't blast a door off it's hinges.

Also there should just be a distinction between "average door" and "security door." It's worth remembering that feature creep is the death of all game development, and getting bogged down into trying to simulate one aspect or another is probably misspent effort.

[Soulwynd]

In that one video, the dude is 10 feet away, so I'm not sure what they're trying to prove

That the slug would get through the door and kill anyone behind it.

Even if that door was in place correctly, it wouldn't stop breaching, crappy door is crappy.

I think you should put a simple difficulty value to the door with each value range given a name. Cheap, average, solid, security, vault, etc.

[Kusgnos]

Something for text writers to do: we have a bunch of furniture, objects, and so forth that are going to need descriptions. For each furniture item, one or two lines of description will do, (A wooden chair. You can sit on it!) and for weapons, tools, and objects of interest, there ought to be maybe...two or three lines. If knowledge based on skills is implemented, it might be neat to have different descriptions of objects depending on how knowledgeable you were about it. For example...

A handgun. It's a semiautomatic pistol.
vs
A S&W 1911 semiautomatic pistol. It uses .45 caliber bullets.

It might even be kind of funny to have someone look at bullets and see

Smallish bullets.
vs
.22 short ammunition.

But yeah, there we have it. All the furniture items that people wrote in their maps are going to need descriptions, and text writers can do that.

Chairs, tables, wineracks, shelves, cash registers, TVs, doors, lawns, dirt/grass, stairs, doors, crowbars, weapons, melee weapons, clothing, computers, people...etc. People are probably going to use some code that'll pull from their descriptions, but in the meantime, someone can also write up some text for attribute descriptions, skill descriptions, and the description on your character with the attribute in the style that I started some pages back.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

That sounds more or less like what all frangible rounds do: they shatter on impact, causing anything from superficial scratches to catastrophic mutilation, with essentially no penetrative power. Kind of like super hollowpoints that could be stopped by a thick jacket and a little luck.

Well, either they fragment or they mushroom. They don't just vanishes into particles. So I'm curious what it's made out of if it really does do that after impact.

That's not frangible rounds though. There are round that break up on impact, and ones that mushroom, but frangible rounds specifically shatter into many little pieces.

A frangible bullet is one that is designed to disintegrate into tiny particles upon impact to minimize their penetration for reasons of range safety, to limit environmental impact, or to limit the danger behind the intended target.

Also there should just be a distinction between "average door" and "security door." It's worth remembering that feature creep is the death of all game development, and getting bogged down into trying to simulate one aspect or another is probably misspent effort.

I'd hardly call "one door is flimsy and can be easily destroyed (interior "privacy" door), one door is tougher (normal), one is reinforced (reinforced normal door), one is a tough as hell slab of metal, one is a window you can open and walk through..." "feature creep". That sounds more like "trivial differences in the definition of each type of door". Aside from the last one (which would probably be more of a window with a door lock that you could walk through if opened/broken), that sounds like it could be done with a simple 'toughness' stat, and saying "you can't kick down a door above x toughness, or use a breaching round on one above y toughness, or meaningfully damage one above z toughness with anything short of explosives".


And I've started looking at TE4 and lua. Lua seems a whole lot like python, so I don't see much trouble there.

[kilakan]

I like the toughness idea myself, with toughness having ranges based on location, for instance outdoor door's are between 10-30, indoor doors are between 1-15 (yes one, I have a door, I put a chair through by accident in my house, so one is plausible.) Store doors are 25-80 (think 80 being reinforced re-bar riot protection doors in a gunstore)  And government buildings/gang establishments have 40-100.  With high explosives like C4 being able to destroy 80>1 but weaken 99>81, and special explosives along with blowtorches and other equipment can weaken a 100 door until it can be broken. 

I think the main thing we need is to have some way to get through every door in the game forceibly, for the higher up gang aspects/police possibilities.  That way there isn't certain area's where only master lock-pickers can get.

[nenjin]

I'd hardly call "one door is flimsy and can be easily destroyed (interior "privacy" door), one door is tougher (normal), one is reinforced (reinforced normal door), one is a tough as hell slab of metal, one is a window you can open and walk through..." "feature creep". That sounds more like "trivial differences in the definition of each type of door". Aside from the last one (which would probably be more of a window with a door lock that you could walk through if opened/broken), that sounds like it could be done with a simple 'toughness' stat, and saying "you can't kick down a door above x toughness, or use a breaching round on one above y toughness, or meaningfully damage one above z toughness with anything short of explosives".

I was more meaning stuff like:

There is a door. Do you wish to:

a) Smash it
b) Pick the lock
c) Use a crowbar
d) Shoot the hinges with your shotgun, using slug rounds.
e) Shoot the hinges with your shotgun, using buckshot.
f) Shoot the lock with your shotgun, using slug rounds.

Ect...

That's not frangible rounds though. There are round that break up on impact, and ones that mushroom, but frangible rounds specifically shatter into many little pieces.

Yeah, I know. Pieces smaller than the size of a BB round. I hadn't seen anything where the round literally disintegrates into powder.

Item descriptions

First off: Do weapons have any stat? Or do you just want generic filler text we can pull down from the Internet?
Second: Do we have an actual list of objects, or are we supposed to go through people's designs?
Third: Let's use a master page. Duplication sucks unless it's adding to the aforementioned "item knowledge" thing.

[Tnx]

Why not make a second pirate pad for a list of items and everyone can just type in descriptions there?

[Soadreqm]

Also there should just be a distinction between "average door" and "security door." It's worth remembering that feature creep is the death of all game development, and getting bogged down into trying to simulate one aspect or another is probably misspent effort.

Well, it's a crime focused roguelike so a lot of gameplay will probably revolve around getting to places where other people don't want you to go. Focusing exclusively on the door opening simulator at the cost of all else would be stupid, I agree, but I think it would be worthwhile to have arbitrary strength doors with arbitrary strength locks and let the player try to either pick the locks or try to break them down. Not a dozen different commands for kicking that sucker in, but rather letting you attack the door like any other enemy.

EDIT: Also, for the more distant future, getting the key should be a valid method for getting into places with really strong doors. Bribe or kill someone who is allowed to get in.

By the way, how do pick other kinds of locks? like those hemicylinder-locks with the little rotating plates inside. These. Finnish doors have these pretty much exclusively. How do they work?

That thing looks like a beast. I wonder if it's even pickable.

Further research shows that people who know how to lockpick like these locks as security, because they're apparently nigh-impossible to pick. Only known way, say some, is to use a decoder. :|

Huh. Looks like my country hit the jackpot with getting the good lock company. I've seen those things on bicycles.

[Deon]

It looks like a fun and long discussion, I just want to point that 95% of apartment doors where I live are three-layer metal and with "cerberus" locks .