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Author Topic: Crime Focused Roguelike  (Read 97493 times)

Josephus

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #195 on: August 31, 2010, 01:48:45 am »

If I knew the first thing about coding, I would definitely help with this. Actually, that's kind of a lie; I would probly be working on the Cowboy roguelike of my dreams. Oh well, posting to keep an eye on this.

D:

We share a dream.
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Solar Rangers: Suggestion Game in SPAAAAACE
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i had the elves bring me two tigermen, although i forgot to let them out of the cage and they died : ( i was sad : (

insectcalm

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #196 on: August 31, 2010, 01:58:47 am »

I wanna reenact Lonesome Dove in excruciating detail, dammit! :,(
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Josephus

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #197 on: August 31, 2010, 02:04:43 am »

I will learn lua for that purpose and that purpose alone.
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Solar Rangers: Suggestion Game in SPAAAAACE
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i had the elves bring me two tigermen, although i forgot to let them out of the cage and they died : ( i was sad : (

Deon

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #198 on: August 31, 2010, 02:07:25 am »

Yeah I learn Lua too.

And look, you all know my Rogue Survivor tiles:



But I thought about a bit different style for 32x32 pics. With bigger face characters can recieve more details which personalize them.

Example:


You can make anything out of that sprite:
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Josephus

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #199 on: August 31, 2010, 02:08:17 am »

A bit cutesy for a crime rtd, though. Might be better if they're mostly "faceless"?
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i had the elves bring me two tigermen, although i forgot to let them out of the cage and they died : ( i was sad : (

Soadreqm

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #200 on: August 31, 2010, 02:10:07 am »

I won't be able to make it to the dev sessions since they take place at a time at which I am normally sleeping. Time zones. :(

Cthulhu was in favor of these attributes,

Muscle
Constitution
Coordination
Intelligence
Charisma
Willpower
Perception

with a Reflex attribute added in as a combo of coordination and perception. How should we make the stats so it's most balanced, and there's a use for each one? Currently, according to the skill system that Lap made up there, constitution and willpower are least needed for skills, which is perfect, since those two are more 'defensive' in nature. It seems that it might be good though to ...better delineate all of this, since constitution is sort of like our agility stat now, and I'm not sure that'd be accurate? Never mind, I'm just vomiting ideas down right now. Someone help me.

Vomiting ideas, I can help with. My suggestion for tweaking this would be

Muscle
Health (I don't like the word "constitution")
Agility (Ability to move, including running, jumping, climbing, dodging etc.)
Dexterity (Ability to perform small and precise motions, such as picking locks, performing surgery or aiming a sniper rifle)
Intelligence
Charisma
Willpower (Resisting fatigue from focusing on something for a long time or not sleeping, at least. Basically mental resilience? WIL is to INT what health is to muscle?)
Luck (If applicable)

Substats: (Calculated from the primary stats. These don't actually need to exist inside the game itself.)
Coordination: Function of agility and dexterity. Used for most combat skills, at least. Also includes reflexes. Actually, maybe it should just be called "reflexes".
Perception: Function of intelligence and Willpower: How good you are at noticing things. How smart you are combined with how patient you are. It makes sense to me. :P
Endurance: Function of muscle and health. Resisting fatigue from prolonged exercise.

Muscle and Health wouldn't really be used for any skills, but they'd be pretty valuable otherwise. Muscle determines melee damage and carrying capacity, while Health determines whether you live or die when injured.

I also thought of a needlessly complicated skill system while I was sleeping, but I'll need to type it out to know whether it runs on dream logic.
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Deon

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #201 on: August 31, 2010, 02:12:28 am »

A bit cutesy for a crime rtd, though. Might be better if they're mostly "faceless"?
Yeah I know it's cutsey. But I like to kill digital people which have character :).

Do you like my RogueLike character more? Also faceless = less space for fasion (like cigars, sunglasses and stuff) and I want to kill with style :D.

I hope we get overlays and a way to swap tilesets. This way everyone can get what he wants. Being modding DF sprites a lot, I know for sure that people have very different tastes regarding graphical representation of stuff. So the best idea would be to have different tilesets.
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Josephus

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #202 on: August 31, 2010, 02:14:15 am »

Yeah, vanilla would be the basic stuff, for example. 'Gold' would be something like your tileset, so that people can feel like "OHH AHM MODDAN!" The basic tiles would have the advantage of being easily modified by players; your set would have the advantage of being absolutely gorgeous.
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i had the elves bring me two tigermen, although i forgot to let them out of the cage and they died : ( i was sad : (

Deon

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #203 on: August 31, 2010, 02:16:14 am »

I don't want "gold", I want "goblinite" :D.

I will ask Lap if it's possible to make it outside of encoded files and to get tilesets.
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Funk

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #204 on: August 31, 2010, 02:40:06 am »

just on skills maybe

COMBAT SKILLS
-Firearms divided into hand guns,  long arms and heavy weapons with a auto weapon skill

hand guns :pistols,sawn off shotguns,small SMGs*
long arms :rifles,shotguns,assault rifles*
heavy weapons :lage machineguns*,grenade launchers

*auto weapons,not a weapon class but a modifer
 
-Explosives
-Throwing
shoud hand grenades use throwing?

-Martial Arts (maybe specific ones for nonlethal or submission holds) based off Coordination?
-Melee Weapons (possibly subtypes for weird ones like chains)
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Kusgnos

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #205 on: August 31, 2010, 02:45:52 am »

Separating the sprites into head, torso, and feet is a good idea. In the meantime, here are some of the 'vanilla' sprites created. Heh.



Definitely not as much facial detail, as my templates were made to have realistic proportions. Might end up being too teensy for much emotional stylistic connection.

The two blank bald ones are templates, and...the stripey prison jumpsuit one is rather adorable. I wonder if it'd be possible to alter sprites based on what a person was wearing...but that might be too complex. Probably is too complex? It would be fun, though, being able to customize your sprite by wearing jackets, or stealing a jacket from a dead victim, or robbing a clothing store just for the style. I might also make another template that's way more muscle-y, and maybe one that's a lot slimmer, and make a fat one. Kind of...mesomorph, ectomorph, and endomorph, with one normal one. Now you get the fun of chasing down fat/skinny people. Haha.

Also,

Quote from: Soadregm
I also thought of a needlessly complicated skill system while I was sleeping, but I'll need to type it out to know whether it runs on dream logic.

Go for it. I like the statistics idea, though I would vote against luck because for some reason I don't like luck. Must be why I'm so unlucky. Muscle, Health, Agility, Dexterity, Willpower, Intelligence, and Charisma sound good. I'm unsure on the perception part...maybe we should just throw that in, since perception doesn't always need intelligence. Plenty of dumb animals that can see very well, and also plenty of soldiers who have little educational aptitude, but a whole lot of sharpshooter's gaze. So we'd have 8 attributes if we threw that in.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #206 on: August 31, 2010, 03:32:30 am »

I think a "grim and gritty" graphical look would suit us better. And regarding really complicated graphical tricks, I think IVAN is a nice example. It uses pretty small tiles, like 16x16 or maybe even a bit less, but they're really expressive. Pretty much every single item anyone wears or wields is overlaid on the character. Limbs and head are separate, so they can be severed and thrown about. The actual graphics files look like green-tinted grayscales, and the game engine swaps the palettes to create arbitrarily colored objects. Certain colored pixels are rendered as crudely animated fire. There are flies circling around rotten creatures and items, although I'm not sure if that's a simple animation or yet another engine special effect. Lighting is also done with palette manipulation, and the field of view is bright right next to you and dark and desaturated farther away. On the easier side of things, blood splatters are slightly translucent and overlaid on top of each other, so a tile can have anything from a single drop to the whole tile being completely bright red, eventually turning dark red as the blood drys. I'm not sure how much of that the engine we're using supports, or how much of it is worthwhile, but it's a nice example of what can be done with enough graphics wizardry.

I like the statistics idea, though I would vote against luck because for some reason I don't like luck. Must be why I'm so unlucky. Muscle, Health, Agility, Dexterity, Willpower, Intelligence, and Charisma sound good. I'm unsure on the perception part...maybe we should just throw that in, since perception doesn't always need intelligence. Plenty of dumb animals that can see very well, and also plenty of soldiers who have little educational aptitude, but a whole lot of sharpshooter's gaze. So we'd have 8 attributes if we threw that in.

My idea for Luck was more of a "fate" type of thing. How much luck you have left, rather than how lucky you are. Like, a special stat that doesn't affect any skill rolls and doesn't help in any way, but lets you permanently sacrifice points to do special things like automatically succeed in a task or evade death or maybe just reroll something. I don't really like the idea of Fallout-style luck either.

Yeah, I'm not sure about perception. Is it your eyesight or just your ability to notice details? Are the two connected? What about hearing and sense of smell? What would it actually do in the game? Back in CrimsonKing's mockup, I think it was for cleaning up crime scenes, noticing blood spatters on your clothes, that kind of things, which probably would be mental-based.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 05:59:31 am by Soadreqm »
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Deon

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #207 on: August 31, 2010, 04:41:01 am »

I don't think we should be crazy about art style for now, it's all easy to do in comparison to other things.

I would gladly accept Kusgnos's style as a base, because... it's what it is. Characters lack any details but they have everything needed to see clothes/gender.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #208 on: August 31, 2010, 05:21:07 am »

About the skills. I thought about something like separating skill level into two numbers, your theoretical knowledge of it and your practical experience with it and making the former much easier to train and adding skill rust. Thinking about it more, it'd be a bitch to balance, not make very much sense in some places, and not necessarily even solve the grind problem.

Is there some kind of incentive for the player to hurry? Could we simply automate grinding? I think someone suggested this already. You could set your character to sit in his house for five years reading about lockpicks. You'd need money for things like rent and food, so you'd have to leave to rob something every now and then. And you'd need to make this kind of skill gain slower than skill gained by actually using skills "in the field" so that there is still some incentive to do the latter, but not so slow that it's completely worthless. And the character could age and eventually die, LCS style, meaning that you coulnd't just train forever with no ill effects. And maybe add some skill rust for things you go without using for a while, so that just training one thing for really long times is not good.

My suggestion for skills we need. Possibly missing some things. For the most part, I'm not sure which skills should give bonuses to each other.
Combat
melee: Individual skills for attack types? Slashing, crushing, stabbing? Or maybe item categories: knives, swords, clubs. Improvised weapons would mostly be clubs, I guess. Hit chance affected by AGI and DEX, damage by MSC.
martial arts: Sriking, kicking, wrestling? Should these even be broken into individual skills? Or should wrestling be separated to grasps, holds and throws? Eh, maybe just go with the three. For punches and kicks, skills as before. Wrestling uses the same three, but in a different way, since damage is dealt differently.
ranged: mostly firearms, but any crossbows and shit would probably use the same skill. LCS has pistols, SMGs, shotguns, rifles and flamethrowers. Is that too many skills? Where would the crossbows fall here? Eh, maybe just go with weapon size, like Funk suggested. A separate skill for full automatic sounds good too. Affected by AGI and DEX. Probably mostly DEX. It could be situational. The more time you have to aim, the more DEX matters.
throwing: This might be a subskill of "ranged", although it doesn't really have that much in common with it. I think you should be able to throw grenades with fairly little throwing skill. They're not really a precision weapon, as far as I know. Higher levels would be for things like throwing knives. Bricks would fall somewhere in between. Range affected by AGI and MSC, I'd say, and accuracy mostly by DEX.

Sciency knowledge-type skills
Medicine: For basic first aid, at least, and more depending on how sophisticated the wound system will be. INT and possibly DEX, at least for some procedures.
Chemistry: Making (and safely handling) explosives. Also acids if they come up. Identifying and manufacturing drugs and poisons would probably use both this and medicine. INT.
Computers: Do we want realistic hacking or Hollywood hacking? Are we even going to have computers? INT.
Other: I guess any "street smarts" and such would also be knowledge skills?

Mechanics and electronics
Mechanics: Not sure if there should be a generic "mechanics" skill. It'd probably give a bonus to lockpicking, at least. What else could it be used for? Repairing cars? Repairing watches? Repairing diesel generators? Is anything like that going to come up? Maybe merge this with Electronics? INT and DEX.
Electronics: This'll be needed for explosives. How detonators are put together, how to make them, how to defuse them, stuff like that. Also working with electronic locks, hotwiring cars, repairing machinery, disabling security systems and anything similar that might come up. INT and DEX.
Lockpicking: Opening locks, ranging from bicycle locks to combination locks. DEX.

Movement
I'm not sure if there should be skills for jumping, climbing, swimming and such. Technique doesn't matter that much. Your ability at those should mostly be determined by the relevant stats. A dodging skill would fall here as well, and that one would be so useful that everyone would want it. Maybe make it difficult to train? Except then we're back at grinding. Eh, maybe just go with stats.

Things missing
Driving: Probably in a LCS-style chase scene minigame. I'd suggest leaving cars static, multi-tile objects that you can't manually drive. It'd be cool to have a trunk, like in Fallout 2. Maybe entering cars, putting things in the glove compartment, stuff like that? Oh, yeah, the skill. What'd this be affected by? DEX? INT? Maybe even AGI, since that's part of the reflexes meta-attribute.
Social skills: There'd probably be a couple of these. Haggling, persuasion, stuff like that. Affected by CHA, possibly INT, maybe even WIL?
Stealth: Moving without being seen. Also knowing whether you are seen. Probably INT and AGI or DEX.
Disguise: Moving without attracting attention. And knowing when people are suspicious. INT and CHA.
Sleight-of-hand: Some kind of skill for picking pockets and doing card tricks? DEX, maybe CHA?

For lockpicking, you could make skill mostly affect how quickly you can pick the lock, not whether you can pick it. That way, you could access places with strong locks without epic-level skills, it'd just be more risky since it'd take time. And you'd still need some minimum level of skill to understand the premises of how the lock operates.

This model would leave HLT, MSC and WIL mostly useless. That's fine for HLT, at least, since it's otherwise helpful, being the stat that keeps you alive when you get hit. And muscle is for carrying capacity. I'm a bit worried about WIL, though. It'd be used for resisting pain, fear and boredom, but what else? We probably aren't going to have mind control, are we? Maybe doing anything under stress should be harder, stress here meaning anything from drug withdrawal and sleep deprivation to loud noises or an audience, and willpower would let you resist the penalties?

AGI and DEX are used a lot. Maybe too much. Perhaps we need a Perception skill to make guns and knives use different skills. Of course, they'll still be necessary for dodging. Meh.
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Ochita

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Re: Crime Focused Roguelike
« Reply #209 on: August 31, 2010, 05:39:59 am »

Medicine could tell you what the wound is like. So skill 20~30 would be... "Its a long cut on your arm, it seems that it has not been infected" 50~60 "It is a long cut on your arn that is 3-4cm deep. It will bleed" Type stuff. Just my (Bad) 2 cents
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