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[HonkyPunch]

This is the reason I have yet to try miniature/card games.
I simply do not have the money to dump into it.

[olemars]

Where I live, I think the only organized miniatures gaming place is on the second floor of the only shop in the area that sells them. Pretty sure bringing homebuilds would be frowned upon there 

[janekk]

This is the reason I have yet to try miniature/card games.
I simply do not have the money to dump into it.

Same for me. No matter how much I'd like to have even very small WH40k army I can't justify cost. I mean its 30$ for a single plastic tank.

[HonkyPunch]

Yup.
I'm interested but i'll just stick to my pen and paper rpgs over miniatures games.
(Speaking of, I really need to play more pen and paper games. :O)

[PrimusRibbus]

Proxies are a "time and a place" thing in TCGs and Minis. Here's my perspective as a former TCG player and current small-scale minis players:

Proxies are great if you've got an idea for a new strategy, but don't want to drop money on eBay for a specific piece until you've made sure that said strategy has a sound premise. My former roommate and I spent many afternoons testing wild ideas in various games using proxies.
They're also great if you show up at your buddy's house and left one of your rares sitting out on your table at home. It's casual, everyone knows you have that piece, and the aim is to just mess around a bit.

However,
I would NEVER attempt to use a proxy in a DCI-sanctioned event or at a local gaming hall/gaming club where I might be playing with people I'm not friends with or don't know at all. DCI bans proxies even at casual events, and people are serious about keeping their events DCI compliant because of the national rankings and periodic prize kits/pre-release bonuses/goodies that come with being in good standing. Judges and other players are pretty serious about the proxy rule; not because they're trying to be dicks, but because they're directly responsible for maintaining the compliance and reputation of their events.

Beyond that, many TCG/minis games (and some local gaming stores too) are perpetually one or two sets away from being canceled. When you're aware of the fact that your hobby (or local store) could get the axe at anytime, you don't foster a culture of not buying pieces or boosters.

Finally, for a lot of the guys that can only afford one booster or eBay purchase a paycheck, trading is half the fun. The encouragement of proxies kills the thrill of haggling for that piece you need, or wheeling and dealing for the best offer to take the piece you don't need off your hands.

I completely understand why you'd be confused by the reaction to proxies/homemades; I was too when I first started playing TCGs/Minis. On the other hand, widespread proxy play back in '95 ended up being a major player in killing off my interest in Magic, and I've seen a few of the minis games I play dropped from my local gaming store due to low sales.

[Vattic]

Primus' you know the scene. How do people respond to scratch built stuff? I've seen people win competitions, like golden demon, before with mostly scratch built figures and can't imagine such figures being refused at game days but I don't game, only paint myself and not in a long time.

[Vicomt]

Well, things like the Golden Demon competition are slightly different, that encourages you to construct, modify, tweak, and even scratch build, and I don't doubt that any figure entered into golden demo would be refused at the tournaments.... HOWEVER, if a model is not instantly recognisable as what it's supposed to be, you'll hit problems.

I don't do that sort of thing, but I have friends who regularly go to the UK tournaments, and proxies (iirc) are banned, but scratchbuilds and modifications are allowable if they're recognisable. this is only from memory though, I'd have to go ask people what the exact rules are.

[Grendus]

As a former TCG player, trying to use proxies even in a casual game would irritate me. If the point of the game was to build the best deck with however many of any released (and in some cases, unreleased) cards in the game you wanted, you would get all the cards in the game with your first starter deck. TCG games, to me, were about building the best strategy with what you had, and believe me, you can do a lot with a little. I beat people with 3x the number of cards, some of which were absurdly rare, with a fairly common deck, decent strategy, and a little luck. But then, I can see where the money aspect would drive people to using proxy cards, it can be an expensive hobby.

I would never dream of showing up to a tournament or serious league with anything but official cards though. That's just asking for trouble.

[fenrif]

I say use all the proxies you want. It's a game, it's about having fun. Don't let some other guy ruin it for you because he spent hundreds on his hobby and feels you should do the same. Obviously everyone plays for different reasons, you just have to find a group of likeminded players. You'll have much more fun that way anyway.

[GlyphGryph]

Grendus, I agree with your whole "TCGs are about doing what you can with what you have" element - which is why I don't play Magic anymore, since everyone pretty much just custom bought and tailored their decks. The only kind I ever actually enjoyed over the last several years was when a bunch of players pooled their cards to create a common pool, and everyone had to build their deck out of the same pool. When exclusive access and limited cards is an actual primary component of the environment, I understand why that would play a role - but for most of these games, it isn't. Its about how much cash you're willing to drop on it.

Now THAT made things fun and interesting, and managed to rekindle a flagging interest in the game for a while longer.


An argument could be made that exclusivity and rares are a fundamental part of TCGs for some, and thats okay... but the concept doesn't really apply to miniatures games. They aren't collectibles in the same way - you know what you're buying, and order it specifically.

I would never dream of showing up to a tournament or serious league with anything but official cards though. That's just asking for trouble.

And yeah, I'd never do that either - sanctioned events are for the company, and I'd understand why they'd want to enforce that people buy their stuff. What I can't understand is why the players feel personally about it - if it was just "We believe in supporting company X, so we don't allow proxies" I could understand it, but that's not generally the sentiment I've encountered.

Anyways, pics:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Actual Piece:
http://www.iguk.co.uk/images.aspx?image=4104.jpg&title=Burrower%20Bug:%20Starship%20Troopers&product=/products/burrower-bug-starship-troopers-4104.aspx

[Vicomt]

if you showed up to a game with those mini's, I'd personally have no problem whatsoever playing against them. find a better gaming group

[janekk]

It looks really good. As long as it is in scale there is no reason to not play with those.

[Sensei]

Yeah, I don't think I could confuse that with some other kind of piece on the board.

[GlyphGryph]

I've been thinking about this, and I wonder if there's an overlap with the same type of people who refuse to play pictionary or charades unless its in the context of a store bought version of the game.

Yes, these people exist. I don't understand that one in the slightest... but I assume thats getting a ways off topic.

[nenjin]

That's pretty neat. It still looks like paper mache, but it looks like what it's supposed to as well. Nice work.

And yeah, I'd never do that either - sanctioned events are for the company, and I'd understand why they'd want to enforce that people buy their stuff. What I can't understand is why the players feel personally about it - if it was just "We believe in supporting company X, so we don't allow proxies" I could understand it, but that's not generally the sentiment I've encountered.

You'd be surprised how much of the philosophy espoused by gaming companies gets internalized by their fans. (Or maybe you won't, this is Bay 12 after all.) It just seems especially bad with war gamers. Not only, in tournament situations, do they have incentives to win and to be knowledgable...in and out of tournaments, they start to meta-game. It's the natural evolution of beating people on the table regularly, you start undercutting them as a real opponent. That's when the lawyering, the hard core pro behavior and most of the unpleasantness starts to happen.

In non-tournament settings, I see WYSIWYG as exactly that. Someone trying to take the philosophy of a TCG and apply it to TT wargames, where you had to have spent _this_ much to enjoy the fruits of the rules system and options. I've heard excuses up and down the board, from 'we like to photograph people's games sometimes and don't like ugly proxies' to 'we don't want GWS reps seeing non-GWS figs being used here' to 'I don't run this store so you guys can come in here and play for free.'

Which is why I mostly enjoy TT and TCG gaming on the PC now.