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[lumin]

I haven't played a lot of open-source games so I am by no means an experienced open-source guru in that department.  

However, comparing the open-source games that I have played to closed-source games, in general, it seems that they are not as good.  It seems that their direction is not quite as refined or organized enough.  Now, one might say, Of course closed-source games are better, the developers earn a salary, but even those Indie, closed-source developers who don't get paid still seem to make better games.

On another front, other open-source software such as Linux seem to compete just as well or better (quality speaking) with their commercially made competition.

I believe that creating games is an art, not a science - it's goals are for subjective results.  

The goal for Windows and Linux may be the same: Create a great operating system that works well getting jobs done.  It wasn't designed to invoke an emotional response from your audience, it's just there to get things done the right way.

Video Games, on the other hand, are for leisure activity just like watching a good movie.  Imagine watching an open-source film, where anybody could be an actor, write a piece of the story, or design part of the set.  What you would have would be a mess (something like Monty Python and the Holy Grail).  Perhaps this is not the best analogy since open-source games pass peer-review before going into the final product.  This is not to say that it is a fail-safe process, however, as a lot of things do slip through the cracks especially when the game has been in development for many years and very few eyes are watching.

I think Independent (closed-source) game developers are popping up more and more lately, and their quality is getting better and better.  In the future I see closed source, indie games becoming more and more popular, rivaling the commercially-made stuff.  At least, I hope this is so, because it seems that the greatest innovations to gaming come from the closed-source independent developers.

[herrbdog]

quote:Originally posted by lumin:
<STRONG>At least, I hope this is so, because it seems that the greatest innovations to gaming come from the closed-source independent developers.</STRONG>

Super Reason Number One!

Why make your innovations open source when you KNOW unscrupulous (EA anyone?) commercial developers will just steal your ideas/code?

[JT]

Based on my observations, there is no difference between open-source and closed-source as far as quality is concerned.  There are countless excellent open-source games and countless terrible closed-source games.

That said, of course, I believe strongly in the right of a developer to protect his work's uniqueness by making it closed source, and it doesn't affect my opinion on a product one way or another.  Most people who complain about a non-open-source product are usually complaining because they either want to lift some of its source code for their own purposes or because they want to cheat and see everything the game has to offer with no sense of discovery.

The latter isn't so bad in its own right, of course.  For instance, Nethack wouldn't even be installed on my hard disc if it didn't have source code.  I didn't like the game, but it's very interesting to delve into its source to see some of the interesting features (I'm an amateur developer myself).  I know I created my own version of the ONE_IN_(X) macro they have when I spotted it in the source code, for instance -- that's a really simple and elegant function.

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

I'm a page late on this but I must add my 2 cents to this, and I for one think the constant comparisons between DF and rogue-likes are superficial and mostly dumb.

Adventurer Mode might be grounds for this but as of right now that plays a very minor role in the scope of this game. Past that it's mostly the graphics. I would see this more as the best "god-game" in years, possibly ever. Throw in a stupid oversized cow and this is Black & White- except that this statement insults the complexity of DF. I would sooner compare Toady to Will Wright, or Peter Molyneux than Biskup. Not as a smear of ADOM (which I never got too into personally,) but because I don't think DF belongs in the rogue-like, or any other strictly RPG genre. I would guess games like Stronghold (the SSI one,)and Dungeon Keeper influenced DF more than Rogue, Angband, Hack, etc. Dwarf Fortress reminds me more of SimAnt then Wasteland.

For the record I think Toady currently has both Wright and Molyneux beat- although 'Spore' may be a competitor.

As for the open-source, I'd like to have it too. I can't even program worth squat, and I don't like to know the trick behind the magic. It's just the fact that somethings being kept from me. Plus personally I would welcome improved graphics\interface related mods. Still close-source should\does not detract from the game to a gamer. If a game is good, and fun, how the data is encrypted should be irrelevant to a player. In fact I hate this new open-source trend that allows major companies to release a piece of crap and rely on modders to maybe fix it. (Bethesda, CA, you'll be lucky if I even pirate your next product after actually buying your last.)

Ugh, I went into rant mode. Now I suddenly snapped out of it, I hope this post makes sense to you all and isn't horribly out of place.

[lumin]

quote:  I would sooner compare Toady to Will Wright, or Peter Molyneux than Biskup.

This is what I have been thinking since I found DF, perhaps that is why there are so many roguelike fans who do not like this game.  I've heard some say, even now during DF production, that most roguelikes are dead and that there is little to no new projects on the way.  Well, maybe they are right, DF goes where no RL has gone before.  So yes, Roguelikes with linear plots, static worlds, and short adventures may just be a thing of the past.

quote:
For the record I think Toady currently has both Wright and Molyneux beat- although 'Spore' may be a competitor.  

I would agree and would also throw Sid Meyer in there too.

While we're on the topic of Spore, has anyone played   Noctis?  Very similar to the idea of Spore, but done by an Indie programmer.  If you can learn the controls and get past the simple graphics, it's really interesting (you could say the same for DF though!).  Download the latest CE version from the forums at the site.

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Sid Meyers would fit yes, but even if a roguelike had a large open-ended dynamic world, DF (Fortress Mode) would still not be a rogue-like. There is no PC in Fortress mode, something crucial to a rogue or any RPG.

I've yet to hear bad press about DF personally, but then it is a very niche\cult game. Even if it had crisp next-gen graphics it would still be overwhelming to the "average gamer".

As for rogue-likes being dead, I think that the graphical purism of ASCII is- but then Oblivion and every other Bethesda game is a first-person rogue almost, and most other PC Rpgs try to be too. If we define Roguelikes by freedom of choice in travel, large world, etc. then most modern games are trying to push the depth as much as they can. (Though generally it is a hack-job, the illusion is too clear, and they fail.) Heck you could say GTA4 was semi-roguelike.

[JT]

Armok I was intended to be more about Adventure Mode and didn't have a city-building mode, so I measure Armok II (Dwarf Fortress) along those lines.  If you were to ask me (mind you, this is as a complete stranger who wasn't aware of the earliest stages of development), I would wager that Toady made Fortress Mode as a testing ground to test a task-based AI system, then kept running with the little guy when it turned out to be so damned fun.

In general, I play DF more for the adventure mode these days, and as adventure mode gets more content I'll probably play fortress mode less and less.

[Toady One]

I'm not sure any less people are playing text games these days.  Possibly more.  They certainly aren't mainstream, but neither were video games back when ASCII games were relatively popular.  Pure ASCII display is doing fine, and there still seem to be as many of those in development as ever.  It might be harder to pick out some 'major' current projects that are still in development, but I haven't been looking into it.

We'd already solidified our 'fantasy' idea by the time Dungeon Keeper came out, and as far as the mining feel goes, DF owes more to VGA Miner and Dig Dug, because I was thinking of them when I wrote Mutant Miner, the first iteration of DF as a mining game (Armok I being the earlier iteration as a fantasy game).  I was already in college by the time DK came out, and we didn't have much time to play it or anything else (I did own it though).  SSI Stronghold was pretty fun.  Our favorite games in our formative years were Starflight 1, Rogue/Larn/Hack 1.03, Ancient Art of War, SimEarth, Ultima 4, Seven Cities of Gold...  Loderunner too (because of the editors -- we got a lot of mileage out of Adventure Construction Set and even Bugs Bunny's Cartoon Workshop because of the editors).  SimAnt too, yeah, of the 'Sim' games, Earth and Ant got the most play.  I always forget lots of the favorites, and we played a lot of arcade and console games too.

Strangely, I wouldn't list "large world" or "freedom of choice in travel" as roguelike traits.  Many of them don't have either (depending on what is meant by 'freedom').  It seems like random content generation (mostly maps and items and monster placements) and high-action RPG are near the top of the list of unifying characteristics, but RL is virtually useless as a descriptor because people have such different ideas about what it means.

[silentnight]

quote:Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:
<STRONG>Sid Meyers would fit yes, but even if a roguelike had a large open-ended dynamic world, DF (Fortress Mode) would still not be a rogue-like. There is no PC in Fortress mode, something crucial to a rogue or any RPG..</STRONG>

there is too you play their unquestioned unseen and sometimes ignored leader...  :p

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

I've never played Armok I, I claim no authority or expertise on the matter of Rogue-likes, and I don't know what the ultimate plan for DF will be. Still as of its current day status it seems to me far removed from RLs. Adventure mode has great potential but currently limited content. But even if Adventure mode were complete totally to Toady's (ies?) satisfaction, the complete game reaches far beyond any of the single modes. The scope of this game is mind-blowing if the ambitions of the Dev. page get to be realized.

Toady I am whole heartedly rooting for you. And I don't compare DF to either Dungeon Keeper or SimAnt simply because of digging.

[Captain Mayday]

As far asx I can tell, there is no DF vs Jade issue, since DF is being played now, with work visibly being done on it, whereas the only apparent evidence of Jade even existing is a website.

[Gauteamus]

[OT]
That is one hilarious signature, Mayday  
and quite in the spirit of the game
[/OT]

[Captain Mayday]

Thanks, it's pretty much an inevitable result of running an elephant based economy. Accidents happen, and when they do, they're remembered in rooms full of images of death.

[Twilight]

Hello,
 of course, DF is fantastic.  ADOM? I've always liked TOME a lot more.  TOME (& its variants) are my favorite roguelikes.  There, that was almost worth two cents.

[Jusal]

ADoM is in my opinion the best roguelike I've played. It's not too hard to get into for beginners and has a tidy 'everything was designed deep enough without raising some things over others' feeling. I like it a lot.

As for JADE. Well I don't know really, I've not been waiting for it really, just seems to be one of those forever-projects if you get it what I mean.

IVAN is also a great game. I enjoyed all those small details and tricks it had, kinda reminded me of Nethack.

Dwarf Fortress is something I suppose I will be playing for years to come, the whole idea of maintaining one of those (dwarven) settlements often seen in Roguelikes is almost like a dream. Of course there is still much to do (Personally I would like to see random adventurers visiting the fortress to buy mighty dwarven weapons and so on) but even as it is now its possibilities should amaze every player who dares to learn the basics.

So I don't like the Dwarf Fortress vs JADE setting at all. They are still (going to be) two very different games even if they share some features.