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Author Topic: Crusader Kings 2 is released.  (Read 2121581 times)

Mathel

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14835 on: January 08, 2020, 03:46:59 pm »

Sorry, the entire idea of buffing their stats because they're from the future is absolutely absurd. Nothing about being from the future makes people like you more; nothing about it makes you better at leading medieval troops or raising levies from medieval villages; you don't actually know anything about how the medieval economy or taxes or work; you don't have any connections among elites or shady organizations; and even if you're the same religion as someone from the time period, your understanding of the religion is probably vastly different from their own understanding of the "same" religion. You don't have access to any of the infrastructure that your "future knowledge" relies on. Most importantly, you don't have any real knowledge of how to operate in their medieval culture. You don't have connections or friends or credentials or anything. You'd be worse than useless, because you'd expect everything to work differently than it does.

They would not have infrastructure, but they would have knowledge
A military expert may know tactics that were developed later. (Martial)
A historian may know things long gone public. (Diplomacy)
An engineer would know how to build things better. (Stewardship)
A chemist would know how to make poisons. (Intrigue)
A doctor about could know about peniciline and would know how organs work. (Learning)

Sure, the lack of infrastructure would hurt most of these people, but they still could perform better than people from the past. Some things do not require much infrastructure.

About credentials, those are their work. They would have to get someone to try them and prove that they are that good.

The real issue is language in this case. All used languages evolved over the centuries, so unless this time traveller knows latin, he would be unable to communicate. And even if he knew latin, he would have to learn the local language to speak with people who do not know latin.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14836 on: January 08, 2020, 04:40:30 pm »

They would not have infrastructure, but they would have knowledge
Debatable. Most people don't know the exact formula or process for gunpowder or combustion engines, just that they're possible. Even experts or people familiar with the trivia generally know it either in an advanced fashion (how steel is smelted nowadays, not how to do so yourself) or in purely hypothetical terms (how to create persuasive propaganda, not that they've ever done so in practice).

A military expert may know tactics that were developed later. (Martial)
A historian may know things long gone public. (Diplomacy)
An engineer would know how to build things better. (Stewardship)
A chemist would know how to make poisons. (Intrigue)
A doctor about could know about peniciline and would know how organs work. (Learning)
Advanced military tactics are generally valuable because they exploit advanced conditions, not because ancient peoples were too stupid to hold spears right. Knowing what tactics are to be used in the future doesn't help if you can't make those conditions true in the present.
An egghead from several centuries in the future trying to brag about contemporary events he read about in fragmentary sources sounds like the opposite of a diplomacy bonus. It sounds in fact like a comedy premise.
A modern engineer would know how to build things better with modern materials and equipment. He wouldn't necessary know anything about working cut stone or assembling a wood crane from scratch. For that matter, modern designs tend to be overengineered for safety but intended to operate for only a few decades. Medieval peoples might not consider those useful qualities.
I mean yeah, there's probably a few gems in there. Usually creating a poison isn't really the hard part of murder, though.
He might know about Penicillin. That doesn't mean he'd be able to refine any. He would indeed know how organs work, at least broadly, but again- way, waaaaay easier to say "kidneys filter the blood" than perform useful diagnoses and surgery and medicine with medieval tools.

Sure, the lack of infrastructure would hurt most of these people, but they still could perform better than people from the past. Some things do not require much infrastructure.

About credentials, those are their work. They would have to get someone to try them and prove that they are that good.
Quick acid test for this- drop a guy from now into the 1920s. Would you expect him to be a better or worse 1920s mechanic, politician, lawyer, bartender, etc etc than people who were familiar with the time period? I see no reason they'd "perform better than people from the past" for most of these.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14837 on: January 08, 2020, 05:31:43 pm »

For the sake of continuing to overthink this, why not turn that around? Imagine a normal person with a high school education from 2000 years from now appearing in our time. How useful would that be?
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14838 on: January 08, 2020, 05:52:55 pm »

... a person ... 2000 years from now ...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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IronyOwl

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14839 on: January 08, 2020, 06:04:14 pm »

For the sake of continuing to overthink this, why not turn that around? Imagine a normal person with a high school education from 2000 years from now appearing in our time. How useful would that be?
My money's on not being able to breathe the atmosphere, honestly.

Barring that, probably INCREDIBLE if he had access to a thrkmlin. What's a thrkmlin? It's like a toodoo that doesn't suck. What's a toodoo? It's... it's like... like imagine a torscope and a nefrik, but they can jak with each other over- why are you staring at me like that? HOW DO YOU PEOPLE LIVE LIKE THIS?!


Though on a brighter note, just being able to say we develop immortality around now or FTL drives 200 years ago (he thought?) might have a huge impact. People grossly underestimate what's possible when you put your mind to it, so just hearing that a thing is real and not science fiction might cause a surge towards actually trying for it.
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Zangi

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14840 on: January 08, 2020, 10:24:56 pm »

For the sake of continuing to overthink this, why not turn that around? Imagine a normal person with a high school education from 2000 years from now appearing in our time. How useful would that be?
Depends on how old they are.  What is considered passing.  How often they apply that high school education, if at all.  Are we saying top of the class?  Just barely passing?
And standards vary wildly from place to place.    A high standard school?  Or public high school.

It makes a huge difference.  Cause if we look at today's education system in Best Murrica.  Even if someone passes high school, doesn't mean they actually retain much of the information.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14841 on: January 09, 2020, 09:01:47 am »

I'm going to ignore any "he doesn't have the infrastructure!" arguments because not only does it not matter narratively ("I know how to do X but I can't because I don't know how wood works" is not an interesting premise for a PC, much less an NPC) but because the conceit of the plot makes it largely null anyway - the Isekai'd character isn't going to be working without infrastructure, the whole plot is the production of that infrastructure from what was present in the middle ages. For one, the Isekai character will never not have access to the ear of a lord, with decent chances it's a duke or even a king. It's CKII after all - if they don't have this, they wouldn't exist at all.

The Isekai'd character is selected from people who know this stuff, so arguing about how unlikely it is for a general population person to not know how a steam engine works is pendantic. Chances are you wouldn't be playing the Isekai'd character anyway, since they show up mid-game. You'd need to have them proc in your country, give them a county, and then save and exit to switch to them. The main mechanic I'd expect most players to deal with would be the Isekai character overturning the apple cart from either directly underneath them or in a neighboring country. Think mongols, but possibly showing up in the middle of Germany in 845, you know?
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scriver

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14842 on: January 09, 2020, 10:33:35 am »

We totally need communist isekai Mongols, make it so
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TamerVirus

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14843 on: January 09, 2020, 11:28:04 am »

"You claim to come from the future? WHAT HERESY!"
cue burning at the stake
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scriver

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14844 on: January 09, 2020, 11:41:16 am »

Well the isecharacter obviously needs to find a way to become q trusted friend of the leader in that case.

One fun way to introduce them would be as a variant/copy of some of the normal assassination plot events (not all are feasivle) where instead of being killed the isecharacter manages to save the ruler's life, making them quick friends and allies. That feels like a very narratively neat option (It's very evocative of relevant media to me at least) that might also catch a player off guard the first time it happens.
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Zangi

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14845 on: January 09, 2020, 12:42:58 pm »

You'd probably need a number of quickfire events to get the super character scenario set-up and rolling.

It'd be more interesting for them to have variable paths, on top of their base specialization.  Depending on their traits and of those around them, with a tiny bit of RNG.  Betrayed, supported, hated(or feared) and/or left to do their own thing. 
Not all of their contributions to the world need be positive, in my personal opinion.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14846 on: January 09, 2020, 11:15:18 pm »

Definitely. Should be a chance for them to be trouble as much as a chance for them to bring enormous power to their liege

And in the event you do play one a crusade called on them via event that all catholics are required to join...
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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14847 on: January 26, 2020, 12:08:19 pm »

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Rolan7

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #14849 on: January 26, 2020, 09:09:16 pm »

Yeah much appreciated, that's one of the few DLC I barely resisted picking up, and I wouldn't have heard about this!
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