Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[USEC_OFFICER]

As far as I can tell it shouldn't. The ability to hold Temples is tied to the Iqta government type, not culture or religion. Since Chinese Imperial is another government type, you can't stack it with Iqta. So either the Muslim Merchant Kingdom of Yemen was swallowing the hold penalty for Temples or there's some weird interactions with Islamic Merchant Republics. Neither would surprise me.

[Culise]

I once saw a Muslim Merchant Kingdom of Yemen hold all 4 types of holdings at once. I imagine a Muslim Chinese Imperial government might also be able to do so too?

Shouldn't work. What holdings you can own directly is influenced solely by your government type, and there isn't an Iqta-MR hybrid.

Muslims do get other advantages though. No decadence when an MR, and since they have polygamy, loads of children.

This is true in vanilla, though I don't have Jade Dragon and thus don't know the new Far East governments or religions as well as I should.  Looking it up, at least, that appears to be the case: there's no government to allow all three, and the handles in question haven't been used in the vanilla religion files since I last poked around in there.  A Merchant Kingdom is one of the governments that can hold three types of "main" holdings without penalty (castle, city, and same-culture tribes), but indeed, the code doesn't seem to indicate they can hold temples.  The only reason I add to this post is because I don't think it's automatically true when mods come into play.  There do seem to be certain handles in the code for mods to alter this, but as always, there's a catch: the "can_hold_temples" parameter for religions (there is no city equivalent) should only apply to feudal rulers of that faith.  The Chinese Imperial and Theocratic Feudal governments are feudal in the code, but merchant republics aren't.  Theoretically, if you did something like, say, play the CK2+ mod as a Hellenic Chinese Imperial ruler, you should be able to hold castles, temples, and cities without penalty.  Still, don't hold me to that too much; it's not a property I've personally mucked about with at all. 
^{And in the distance, Alexander and the Diadochi laugh}

[Teneb]

I once saw a Muslim Merchant Kingdom of Yemen hold all 4 types of holdings at once. I imagine a Muslim Chinese Imperial government might also be able to do so too?

Yes. It's weird, because the Iqta government is scripted to allow holding both castles and temples... and so are the islamic religions. There's no way to allow a religion to directly allow the holding of cities, that's government-only territory.

[Culise]

I once saw a Muslim Merchant Kingdom of Yemen hold all 4 types of holdings at once. I imagine a Muslim Chinese Imperial government might also be able to do so too?

Yes. It's weird, because the Iqta government is scripted to allow holding both castles and temples... and so are the islamic religions.

Not in vanilla, at least.  I had to pull up the vanilla files for my post since my own memory was lacking in the area, and no Muslim faiths have the can_hold_temples property in vanilla; this property of feudal Muslim leaders solely comes from the Iqta government.  This is corroborated by the wiki, though it tends to be outdated at times. 

((And if it weren't so late here, I'd consider pulling up one of the old patches to see if this was always true. It occurs to me that it could easily be that it used to be tied to both the religion and the government.))

[Cruxador]

I once saw a Muslim Merchant Kingdom of Yemen hold all 4 types of holdings at once. I imagine a Muslim Chinese Imperial government might also be able to do so too?

Yes. It's weird, because the Iqta government is scripted to allow holding both castles and temples... and so are the islamic religions.

Not in vanilla, at least.  I had to pull up the vanilla files for my post since my own memory was lacking in the area, and no Muslim faiths have the can_hold_temples property in vanilla; this property of feudal Muslim leaders solely comes from the Iqta government.  This is corroborated by the wiki, though it tends to be outdated at times. 

((And if it weren't so late here, I'd consider pulling up one of the old patches to see if this was always true. It occurs to me that it could easily be that it used to be tied to both the religion and the government.))

There was also a time when the iqta government didn't exist, and muslims were in the game then.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Yes, but wasn't that well before Merchant Republics existed as a government type and thus not applicable to the situation at hand?

[Cruxador]

Yes, but wasn't that well before Merchant Republics existed as a government type and thus not applicable to the situation at hand?

I don't believe so, no. The Republic was among the first expansions, and government types as a gameplay concept beyond just your primary holding type were only added a couple years ago. Before that all this kind of thing stemmed from religion.

[martinuzz]

Wow, I just managed to become King of Frisia in 1092 (1066 Duke Dirk of Holland start). Even control all but one of it's provinces.
I am also best friends with the Kaiser's wife, and with the Kaiser's spymaster.

[hector13]

I am also best friends with the Kaiser's wife, and with the Kaiser's spymaster.

Sounds like a time for murder.

[Culise]

I once saw a Muslim Merchant Kingdom of Yemen hold all 4 types of holdings at once. I imagine a Muslim Chinese Imperial government might also be able to do so too?

Yes. It's weird, because the Iqta government is scripted to allow holding both castles and temples... and so are the islamic religions.

Not in vanilla, at least.  I had to pull up the vanilla files for my post since my own memory was lacking in the area, and no Muslim faiths have the can_hold_temples property in vanilla; this property of feudal Muslim leaders solely comes from the Iqta government.  This is corroborated by the wiki, though it tends to be outdated at times. 

((And if it weren't so late here, I'd consider pulling up one of the old patches to see if this was always true. It occurs to me that it could easily be that it used to be tied to both the religion and the government.))

There was also a time when the iqta government didn't exist, and muslims were in the game then.

Yes, the parameter wasn't added just because it seemed fun (else we'd likely also have a cities parameter), but because it was a way of exposing to modders what had previously been hard-coded.  The question raised was if it was both government (or law) and religion at the same time, though.  Before government existed as a distinct feature, iqta was in the game as a succession law, and this was true since Muslims first became playable.  I do not believe iqta affected valid holdings at that time and I also think the transition to government types replaced the modifiers from religions entirely, but I don't remember well enough to disregard it out of hand. 

[scriver]

Merchant Republics were the first other government type to be added to the game, and back then, the mechanical "government types" did not exist - Merchant Republics are a hacked version of Feudal, so to speak, and this is also the source of many of the bugs and issues with it. Government types as we know them, that is to say labels with mechanics and stuff attached to them, wasn't implemented until later. Iqta first appeared at that point, up until then all Muslim land had been Feudal with a special religious temple holding rule.

If I remember correctly (I once tried to mod merchant republics into a "tribal democracy" kind of system, but I gave up) merchant republics are different from the latter added government types in that they are still running primarily on that hacky first solution and not the government type framework. It might be possible this could lead to unforeseen behaviour when interacting with Muslim characters.

I also think (but I don't know 100%) the "can-hold-temples" tag was first implemented with the China expansion, but since Muslims could hold temples before, Muslim temple holding is probably hard coded.

(I base this 97% on the fact that the Game of Thrones mod was unable to properly implement a Feudal Theocracy-ish government type for their Axe Theocracy region (I forget the name of it, it's one of the Free City countries).)

[Teneb]

The can hold temples argument was already in for a pretty long time. The Iqta government, added with the whole government framework in, I think, Horse Lords allows for the owning of castle and temple holdings. It's also locked to Muslims, but not hardcoded and can be changed.

[martinuzz]

Heh, apparently CKII is set to always be in the foreground. I completely missed the windows update popup asking me if it was ok to restart for updates.
Ahwell, good thing there's autosaves.

EDIT: Holy cow, I managed to pull off claiming the Kingdom of England in the name of the widow of King Dirk of Frisia. Sadly King Dirk died a few years earlier, so I didn't get to claim it as my own. I am ruling as Dirk's grandson now, since Dirk's eldest son died before he could inherit. Managed to conquer all of England with the little lad, who became king at 7 years old, and is now 11. The year is 1114.
It took the opportunity when the entire English army went on a Crusade, and managed to get to 99% when they returned By claiming most duchy capitals. They had only 1000 men left after returning from the Crusade, and even though they bravely invaded Friesland, they couldn't stop me from getting the last 1% needed to claim victory.

Sadly, I couldn't invade England before Dirk died, or I believe it would have been properly mine. Now I need to assasinate my uncle first to inherit it when grandma croaks. He did accept my invitation to court, so he's conveniently close already.

EDIT: NVM, he already died, I am now the first heir to the English throne. My grandma is almost 70, so anytime now, King of Frisa and England. And Duke of Brabant. Next on list, Flanders. Also managed to bethrothe a genius.

EDIT: dayum, making my 25+ new vassals not hate me is going to take some effort 
Let's start by changing their silly english free investiment into papal. I'm sure they won't mind. Better do it now, when their opinions are at an all time low already then ruin their opinions after bribing them methinks. Heh, I must have given the Pope a heart attack from joy, I clicked the papal button and he croaked.
 

[smjjames]

Can someone explain how the Crusade contributions work? What makes the score go way up like for Wessex? Obviously it doesn't matter for this one since my characters son has Aquitaine and I'm Emperor of Francia, but it could for future Crusades and I couldn't find an explaination on how it works and how to greatly increase score, other than maybe zerging.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Tawa]

Anything you do that aids the war effort and makes warscore go up--battles, sieges, etc.--increases your war contribution. Whoever makes the most contribution gets the title at the end.

Of course, the person who "does" something is actually just whoever initiates something. If the King of England charges a 20,000 strong Caliphate army with 1,000 men, and everyone else moves in to help the battle, it's still the King of England's contribution because he started the battle. Similarly, if the count of Orkney starts a one-man siege and everyone else moves in to provide enough troops for the siege to be possible, the count of Orkney is still the one who's counted as occupying the territory and contributing to the war.