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[scriver]

I've been playing with the thought a mod which fleshes out pagans reformation in such a way that when you reform a religion, it reforms into the cult/ism of your favored deity, and all other important deities get their own heresies in addition to the Old [Religion] heresy. It would be cool if when you set up Odin as the chief god above all gods and the only one you should worship, different people go "No fuck you Thor is the only god worth worshipping" or "No, Tyr" or "No, Frey/a" or "Njord!", "Ull!" or "Balder!" because people can never fucking agree on everything.

That doesn't really sound right...

Weren't polytheist civilizations just kinda okay with everyone worshiping everything at the same time? It's mostly how that worked in Greece, Rome, China, Japan, India, etc. etc. I don't think there were wars waged in Greece over how Ares should totally be the only one everyone worshiped.

The only time shit gets fucky is when someone goes "NONE OF YOUR GODS EXIST ONLY MINE AND HE'S THE REAL ONE TRUE GOD KANYE WEST" or something. But I really can't think of too many examples of it not being a result of a truly foreign power coming in and stating that.

Maybe some of you guys know if anything of the sort happened.

Reformation in the game, as I understand it, basically means turning the polytheistic religion into a not-quite-but-almost-monotheistic religion, with one god enshrined as the Main God and the other's put on the bench or downgraded to "other spirits/angels/saints"-esque worship. Basically mirroring the powerful monotheistic Christian and Muslim religions that is encroaching on pagan lands, but with pagan flair.

[Cruxador]

I'm late to the party here, but if I remember correctly, Messalians are incestuous in game because there's not much known about them, so the devs went with the incest claim because it made Messalians mechanically interesting instead of them simply being generic Christian heresy #3.

That's the dev's story, but it's not really true. If you look at wikipedia, it is, and if you look at the orthodox wiki (which has the same info, pretty much) then that's true. But if you look at First Advent, which is a Catholic theological encyclopedia from back in the days when encyclopedias were written by experts, there's enough information to get a good picture of them that has nothing to do with incest, and there's primary sources cited as well. It's also far less biased than the orthodox sources, which makes sense since the Catholics didn't really have a dog in that fight. You can read that account here but the short version: They worshipped the Christian god in a manner similar to the way Brahmins worship in India. Honestly, I think it's very interesting despite the fact that it would be a weird religion for a ruler to follow, but considering how jains and buddhists in CK2 bend their philosophies to meet the necessities of ruling, it seems fine to me that Messalians should have the possibility to be played by rulers if the religion somehow spreads enough.

Reformation in the game, as I understand it, basically means turning the polytheistic religion into a not-quite-but-almost-monotheistic religion, with one god enshrined as the Main God and the other's put on the bench or downgraded to "other spirits/angels/saints"-esque worship. Basically mirroring the powerful monotheistic Christian and Muslim religions that is encroaching on pagan lands, but with pagan flair.

Reformation in the came is neither adequately described nor, from a theological perspective, probably adequately thought out. It does seem to get some of what you're describing, but I think the main thing is making an organized and hierarchical church, and any tendency towards monotheism is largely due to the fact that the organized religion mechanics in the game were written for monotheists.

[Man of Paper]

From what I understand of it, and how I think of it in-game, reformation in CKII is similar to the change in the Roman beliefs near the end of their polytheism. That is, they still believe in multiple gods, but one reigns supreme over them all and is more deserving of worship (though the others can still get plenty anyway). Perhaps they begin to create a written language to record the majority of the tales of the Aesir and Vanir, allowing a more unified and centralized system of beliefs.

[Loud Whispers]

The only time shit gets fucky is when someone goes "NONE OF YOUR GODS EXIST ONLY MINE AND HE'S THE REAL ONE TRUE GOD KANYE WEST" or something. But I really can't think of too many examples of it not being a result of a truly foreign power coming in and stating that.

Maybe some of you guys know if anything of the sort happened.

Ancient egypt's polytheists had an example of a domestic example wherein one of the pharoahs went full MY GOD IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD OC DONUT STEAL PLEASE ALL OTHER GODS FAKE GODS. When he died the priests tried erasing all depictions of him because they were that butthurt and reinstated polytheism

[scriver]

Then they discovered ZUN INVICTUS

[misko27]

That's not a divorce, that's an annulment. An annulment is a marriage that never was. The wiki implies that by their nature, a void marriage (which your cosanguinious thing would cover) is automatically annulled, regardless of whether or not the two individuals consent to it. However since they were in a putative marriage, any children born to such a pairing are still legitimate.

A) You can't divorce a dead person, B) If the marriage was not valid, you can absolutely get what the Catholics usually get for divorce, a 'declaration of nullity', but that's not a divorce, that's just saying that it never actually happened, and C) I don't think you would get excommunicated, because it's not even under your control. In the Catholic Church, you can't have invalid marriages, period, and if you thought you had a valid marriage and found out later it wasn't, they wipe it out like it never happened (although there's something weird where if you slept together it's recognized as a sort of non-church common law marriage, so the kids are still legitimate and such).

But there's probably actual literature available for that, I dunno.

But I really can't think of too many examples of it not being a result of a truly foreign power coming in and stating that.

You can't think of any examples of that? I can think of one from Roman times, a certain Nazarene Creed...

[Tawa]

Spoiler: Dev Diary #70: The Art of the East (click to show/hide)

Hi everyone!

Today I thought I’d talk a bit about the new art and music in Jade Dragon. If you’ve been following the development, you’ve probably noticed some of it already. Obviously, there are a lot of new icons, window frames and other interface bling. Most of this is the work of the inestimable Bjarne Hallberg, our main artist on Crusader Kings II.


Tibetan Holdings


A selection of Chinese Coats of Arms

As usual, there are also 15 new event pictures. This time, they were created by two external studios; “5518” and “Volta”. If you look carefully, you should be able to notice that the style is slightly different.







Then there are, of course, the fantastic new portraits by Deric “Crackdtoothgrin” North, and it’s not just one set, but two! Included in Jade Dragon are both his Tibetan and Chinese portraits, and I’ve got to say I think it’s some of his finest work.


Tibetan Portraits


Chinese Portraits

Also included in the expansion is 10 minutes of Chinese themed music from Studio Audinity (composed by Yannick Süß and Robin Birner.) The music sounds great; check out our livestreams for a listen!

That’ll have to do it for today, stay safe!

[Loud Whispers]

yeah boi we general who subdues the west

[Descan]

except you can't play as the chinese general dude

(they said it in a livestream iirc?)

[EnigmaticHat]

The Tibetan portraits seem really different from the other portraits in the base game.

[Sheb]

Though I'm also working with "if no one notices, no one notices", so it is an option to just let it be and never bring it up.

Which is a totally historical thing too.

[Loud Whispers]

except you can't play as the chinese general dude

(they said it in a livestream iirc?)

With a bit of modding anything's possible, and there's always Mongoling up for a bit of fun

[EnigmaticHat]

Though I'm also working with "if no one notices, no one notices", so it is an option to just let it be and never bring it up.

Which is a totally historical thing too.

*quietly scratches out a name from the detailed family genealogy chart*

[scriver]

Though I'm also working with "if no one notices, no one notices", so it is an option to just let it be and never bring it up.

Which is a totally historical thing too.

...okay, serious question, is it actually? I have no idea and am just going with what seems conceivable here. I know there were a few cases (Robert II of France) where it happened, but any others?

Also, did the church ever become aware and then decide to not push the issue despite the fact that dispensation was never granted?

No one noticed, so how would we know?

[misko27]

The anullment page said that there were two types of those marriages: Void marriages and voidable marriages, where a void one is automatically void, while the voidable one is void only if one or both parties desire it. In the Catholic Church, though, there is only void marriages. For what it's worth, I know for a fact that this isn't true in the Orthodox Church: there you're allowed to marry three times (the story I was told by my mother is the church "Celebrates the first, performs the second, tolerates the third, and refuses the fourth"). But since the Catholic Church has "putative marriage", even if you went back and found out that a marriage was illegitimate, the children would still be legal heirs of whatever (although I could totally see an event chain giving someone a claim for something like this).

Also, two things came to my mind today. One was I was thinking back to my fun game as the Hansa in the much later start-dates: it was a lot of fun even though I stayed pretty weak (it's hard to expand as a Merchant Republic when you have a liege, and some Duke repeatedly tried to take Lubeck from me using the Dejure casus belli). But what I remember most about that campaign was how fucking weird it ended up: It was one of the start-dates where the Mongols were still around in their various empires, but one of the fuckers reformed the Tengri faith and fucking over Islam (the entirety of Persia: Tengri!). The Latin Empire existed, but it got crushed and exiled out of Greece by the Byzantines, and then somehow the King of France inherited the Empire so you had a Latin Empire which was just France. And the various Crusades for Jerusalem kept failing miserably, but at the same time the Muslims horribly weakened by the Mongols were unable to dislodge the remaining Crusader state for some reason, so there was just this stalemate in the Holy Land. That was a fun game.

Two: I've noticed something which annoys me greatly about the later start-dates: The Serbian Empire, which historically conquered most of the Balkans and was about to lay siege to Constantinople (and possibly capture it a full century before the Ottomans would do so) when the Tsar died and fragmented it, is actually impossible to create in the game. You need more land (or is it holdings? or dejure kingdoms? I don't remember) than is in the area it held. But more egregiously, you actually can't recreate the territories it conquered at all, as the leader of Bulgaria is married to your sister, even though the Bulgarians would be defeated in battle and become a Serbian vassal state. Almost none of this is possible to do at the 1337 start date, and it isn't in CK2+ or HIP either.

Spoiler: Serbian Empire (click to show/hide)