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[umiman]

I saw once, in a dream, such a noble accepting surrender at a mere 99% warscore.  Could such a thing be real?
(Sarcasm, though seriously...  They sure love wasting their countrymen pointlessly, most of the time.  I still offer, for the rare times they accept)

I've seen this before. Depends on the ruler.

I've also seen AI rulers accept surrender way before anything close to 100% warscore simply because they can't handle 4 wars or something like that.

If you really want to see the AI surrender before total defeat, just declare tributary wars. They will often just give up after some defeats. Hell, if you catch them when they don't even have an army and their AI is super cowardly, they will surrender the same moment you declare war.

Out of all the 4x games I've played, I think the one in CK2 acts the most... human. Not perfect, but it's pretty good as a balance between random and repetitive.

[Kot]

The CK2 AI is nearly perfect imitation of humanity in some cases - like, when they have lunatic trait.

Also, Players often surrender right off the bat because they're playing the game and not giving a damn about going under a ruler that they will stab few minutes later or losing a county that they will get back few minutes later, while if AI is going to lose a piece of their land that belonged to their family since ever for few minutes which could be dozens of years and few rulers, or if they were supposed to bend over to a ruler of completly different culture they act like real life people would in their case - fighting until they literally cannot fight anymore. Imagine if nearby AI Empire with way way way way way more soldiers than you declared a de-jure war on your sole only county - I suppose that at best you would just ragequit before being removed like kebab or try to abuse game mechanics to somehow get away with it.

[Rolan7]

I have occasionally converted to nullify a holy war
Title claim wars are even easier to justify.  They have a generally-accepted document, see!
I suppose I just don't see much issue in gaining a protector, and probably a seat on their council.  It's the main reason I'm playing this game instead of some typical strategy game.

From the perspective of those lords, their fate is completely sealed.  So it bothers me that they spitefully waste their own resources in order to piss off their "oppressor".  Even if they hope to rebel, it's just stupid of them.

Different-culture is a fair point, though, "culture"-ism makes people irrational.

[misko27]

Curiously, I have discovered that there are traits for secret heresy in the game. Interesting. I wonder why there aren't secret societies for them, then? Hmm. I think that would be pretty easy to add in actually. I might do that myself, although it won't fix the problem where you can only start such a society as a heretic/infidel to a liege of a different religion.

I have occasionally converted to nullify a holy war
Title claim wars are even easier to justify.  They have a generally-accepted document, see!
I suppose I just don't see much issue in gaining a protector, and probably a seat on their council.  It's the main reason I'm playing this game instead of some typical strategy game.

From the perspective of those lords, their fate is completely sealed.  So it bothers me that they spitefully waste their own resources in order to piss off their "oppressor".  Even if they hope to rebel, it's just stupid of them.

Different-culture is a fair point, though, "culture"-ism makes people irrational.

I mean as an example that's contemporary to CK2 (1389, so late CK2), Prince Lazar of Serbia famously led the last significant resistance to the Ottomans at the famous Battle of Kosovo. Lazar, leading an army that represented all the remaining independent states in Serbia and Bosnia, fought to a brutal stalemate against the Ottoman army. Both armies were essentially destroyed, with Prince Lazar and Murad I (the Ottoman Sultan) both killed in the fighting, and the few who remained on each side beating a hasty retreat. Of course, since the Ottomans had other armies, in effect this was a loss and the Kingdom of Serbia accepted Ottoman suzerainty under Lazar's successor. (Of course, Lazar is very highly regarded in Serbian history, and is known in Serbian epic poetry as Tsar Lazar; he's also honored as an Orthodox Saint).

So it's actually quite historical. Small powers do spit in the face of the inevitable. If you want, you can imagine that in real life, there are powergamer Rulers ruthlessly thinking about power and practicality, and roleplayer Kings who oppose them against all odds.

[Tawa]

In one of my final pre-M&M games, I decided to form the Wendish Empire as Lithuania. Everything went swimmingly; I formed the Kingdom of Lithuania and was well on my way to taking Poland, when some Russian guy with twice my troops decided to subjugate me while I was down on prestige and piety.

In that moment, I understood the plight of the AI. A calculated, thoroughly planned attack, launched at a time when victory was nigh-mathematically assured. An attack that would cripple my power base beyond recovery, one that stole my land and vassals, leaving me with three horrendous counties just south of Latvia. I would be worse off in the world than when I started. My sons' dreams of being chiefs and kings would be dashed against the stones, now forever doomed to be thralls of some uncaring Russian lord.

When the AI throws its final levies of 50 men against your disciplined imperial legions or screaming horde or bought-and-paid sellsword army, they're not making that decision out of logic, thought, or rationality. It's honor. They're not letting you claim their life's work, their ancestors' lives' work, and what they hoped would be their sons' lives' work, without one last fight, however pathetic that last stand may be.

[Rolan7]

I mean as an example that's contemporary to CK2 (1389, so late CK2), Prince Lazar of Serbia famously led the last significant resistance to the Ottomans at the famous Battle of Kosovo. Lazar, leading an army that represented all the remaining independent states in Serbia and Bosnia, fought to a brutal stalemate against the Ottoman army. Both armies were essentially destroyed, with Prince Lazar and Murad I (the Ottoman Sultan) both killed in the fighting, and the few who remained on each side beating a hasty retreat. Of course, since the Ottomans had other armies, in effect this was a loss and the Kingdom of Serbia accepted Ottoman suzerainty under Lazar's successor. (Of course, Lazar is very highly regarded in Serbian history, and is known in Serbian epic poetry as Tsar Lazar; he's also honored as an Orthodox Saint).

So it's actually quite historical. Small powers do spit in the face of the inevitable. If you want, you can imagine that in real life, there are powergamer Rulers ruthlessly thinking about power and practicality, and roleplayer Kings who oppose them against all odds.

That *is* pretty inspiring.  Even the part where the Ottomans had plenty of other armies, so the war was sorta moot.  Yeah, point made.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

...That is one bad-ass six year old!

Shame he's getting no Martial.  Trying to get him to have good Intrigue, though.  Plus the guy in the last de jure war tried to use a plot to get a claim on the capital dutchy.  I'm keeping him in Jail until the truce expires, because he's got a really good county.

Speaking of counties, why do all the Indian counties have basically no improvements on them?  Been noticing this a lot due to my holdings straddling the western mountain border of India.  All the stuff to the west has a bunch of improvements, while stuff to the east have next to none.

In one of my final pre-M&M games, I decided to form the Wendish Empire as Lithuania. Everything went swimmingly; I formed the Kingdom of Lithuania and was well on my way to taking Poland, when some Russian guy with twice my troops decided to subjugate me while I was down on prestige and piety.

In that moment, I understood the plight of the AI. A calculated, thoroughly planned attack, launched at a time when victory was nigh-mathematically assured. An attack that would cripple my power base beyond recovery, one that stole my land and vassals, leaving me with three horrendous counties just south of Latvia. I would be worse off in the world than when I started. My sons' dreams of being chiefs and kings would be dashed against the stones, now forever doomed to be thralls of some uncaring Russian lord.

When the AI throws its final levies of 50 men against your disciplined imperial legions or screaming horde or bought-and-paid sellsword army, they're not making that decision out of logic, thought, or rationality. It's honor. They're not letting you claim their life's work, their ancestors' lives' work, and what they hoped would be their sons' lives' work, without one last fight, however pathetic that last stand may be.

Heck, as mentioned earlier, I was pretty much in that same situation with my Zoroastrian game.  A bit worse, since the two Holy Wars covered every single piece of land I owned, with the Zunists also pressing a claim.  Think in total they had around 5k troops total to my 1.3-1.4k.  Sane man would have surrendered in one or two of the wars, but I fought, and just barely managed to win, without savescumming at that.  Victory tasted so sweet.

[Kot]

I have occasionally converted to nullify a holy war

So does AI. A lot. It's fucking annoying when I go out for Holy Warring someone for their lands and just as I am about to enforce demands they convert.

Title claim wars are even easier to justify.  They have a generally-accepted document, see!

If a German dude appeared at my doorstep saying he now owns my home, I would stab him with a pointy stick.

I suppose I just don't see much issue in gaining a protector, and probably a seat on their council.  It's the main reason I'm playing this game instead of some typical strategy game.

Yeah. Because you don't give a fuck about that your protector lord is filthy foreginer of different faith that burned and murdered his way through half of Europe to oppress your people and in general you treat him as a monster.

From the perspective of those lords, their fate is completely sealed.  So it bothers me that they spitefully waste their own resources in order to piss off their "oppressor".  Even if they hope to rebel, it's just stupid of them.

If you want, you can imagine that in real life, there are powergamer Rulers ruthlessly thinking about power and practicality, and roleplayer Kings who oppose them against all odds.

Everyone else and Poland . We constantly fought honourable wars because it is the right thing to do, and then constantly fucked over by rational countries who just didin't give a fuck. Imagine if Teutonic Order considered Poles a respectful Christian country that gave them land, Austria actually considered the fact that they were saved from Ottomans by Poland during the Partitions or if Soviets weren't Soviets and actually helped Warsaw Uprising.

[Rolan7]

I mean, I'm fiercely loyal to America, but we're exceptional

I guess I just meant that helpless lords who will keep most of their demesne are irrationally spiteful, but I get that there are reasons for that spite.
And if they're of same religion AND culture and duke-tier, they're generally willing to swear a vassal contract.  Unless they don't like your face.

[Kot]

I mean, I'm fiercely loyal to America, but we're exceptional

Nononono, America is just a country. It's Poland that's exceptional.

[Descan]

Canada's the best because we're actually EVERY country. WOO MULTICULTURALISM THAT ACTUALLY MANAGED TO WORK SOMEWHAT!

Anyway, trying a Slavic Kiev -> Nestorian Russian game right now.

Going swimmingly!

Except I have to find a way to get a nestorian concubine to convert off of. :U

[Neonivek]

It is likely that Canada's success with multiculturalism is because we have a less tangible national identity and pride.

We don't have a culture that needs to be protected or shielded from the encroachment of foreigners like say... the US, France, UK, Germany, Russia, and... you know... every country that isn't Canada.

Not that this wasn't the case in Canada (>_> yeah Canada... not a very proud history not even far back)... But yeah.

It is why sociologists are between saying Canada has a strong multicultural identity... or that Canada just has a flat out weak national identity bordering on being a ghost.

[misko27]

No no, Poland is just polan.

It's Serbia that's exceptional. Exceptionally... something. Not necessarily something good. But most certainly something exceptional indeed, and darn it that will just have to be good enough.

Incidentally, I went to check Stefan I, and Tsar Dusan, and I'm a little disappointed. It's not actually possible to proclaim the Empire of the Serbs and Greeks starting in 1337, despite the fact that that particular character, in fact, did so, and within a few decades. I went to CK2+ and HIP to see if it was different there, but only in HIP is it even remotely possible! (and to add insult to injury, the Bulgarians have an empire in HIP, but it's impossible to subjugate them as happened historically)

Canada's the best because we're actually EVERY country. WOO MULTICULTURALISM THAT ACTUALLY MANAGED TO WORK SOMEWHAT!

When you are every country, you are no country.

[scriver]

It is likely that Canada's success with multiculturalism is because we have a less tangible national identity and pride.

It's more that you genocided all the native inhabitants to the brink of extinction and then mainly received immigration from back "home" or people who are culturally and ethnically very similar to them until basically the last couple of decades.

[misko27]

So hey, does anyone know how often the AI uses their evil devil powers? (Or any powers actually). I'm doing a little modding and it would be useful to know whether I'm just giving the player powers, or the AI (or, from another perspective, whether the player ever has these powers used on them instead of being the user). Failing that, is there any obvious way of figuring out? I've heard that in multiplayer, certain quests that appear to involve two members of a society working together really only occurs on one person's side, which I'd sort of like to avoid.