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[Wysthric]

Gavelkind is the game's Man Mode - It's actually alright if you keep constantly expanding.

[hector13]

Gavelkind is the game's Man Mode - It's actually alright if you keep constantly expanding.

Er... no. It's alright if you get a higher title than you had when you inherited, or have only one heir, and keep expanding, otherwise you lose a big chunk of your land.

[hector13]

I thought gavelkind worked where if you had, say, a kingdom as primary title and a number of counties, you'd not break up, but if you had several kingdoms, you'd break up into the respective kingdoms? Like, you'd only lose land if it was equal to or higher than your current title.

Yeah, this burned me a bit when I started as Munda in India (single county starting between a few kingdoms) because I managed to get another county, but forgot to change my succession thing, so lost the extra county, and had to wait another 40 years to do anything of note.

The kingdom I eventually joined was an amalgam of 3 kingdom titles which constantly broke up and then they all declared war on each other until one guy had it all... and died, upon which it broke up into the 3 separate kingdoms again. In this instance it was a bit of a benefit, because then I could just declare war on a smaller kingdom, instead of one big one once I got big enough.

Basically if you have a lot of your highest title, and have gavelkind succession, the heir you play as will have less land than you had when you died, so it's best to get out of that quickly. The bonuses you get for gavelkind succession (30% Demesne, no need to land your sons) isn't worth the hassle of losing a big chunk of your land.

It's good that your heir still has claims on things, though. Makes it a bit easier to get everything back together.

[Teneb]

I thought gavelkind worked where if you had, say, a kingdom as primary title and a number of counties, you'd not break up, but if you had several kingdoms, you'd break up into the respective kingdoms? Like, you'd only lose land if it was equal to or higher than your current title.

Pretty much. Gavelkind is only truly dangerous for counts, since you lose nearly everything when you die.

Also ninja'd

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Eastern Serbian Kingdoms fell under their divisive squabbling and Greek plotting until the Serbian Empire was forced to intervene, lest the Arabian Empires restore peace under Sunni rather than Orthodoxy; the Queen of Sicily, the Queen of Taurica and the Queen of Armenia were all demoted to duchesses and their lands brought back into the fold of the Serbian Empire - most of the lands lost to the Manurid Arabian Empire and the Persian Empire were also reconquered, though some were lost and are still yet to be retaken to this day. The King of the Eastern Serbian Kingdoms - for failing to keep the dominion united and for failing to keep the Miroslavs together was banished and his family branch relocated to a much quieter life as counts in the French and British countrysides. Altogether an improvement for them, away from the stresses of Byzantine intrigue. Although this first attempt at creating an independent successor state to the Byzantine Empire eventually failed, it did reveal important lessons for future Serbian Emperors - when compared to the successes of the Kingdom of Africa and the Empire of Serbian Rus, it is clear that lone Kingdoms may effectively rule, but only Empires may hold many Kingdoms.

The next lesson learned came about with the fall of Poland.

The Miroslav King of Poland,
Born from dukes of old
Mazovia and Serbia
Saw one woman worth the bone.
Outside of his rightful marriage,
A bastard reared in a carriage,
And God saw it fit to hit home:
Marriage is not forgot by beer!
So God killed his sons with a cold
And plague did empty King's colon,
Until at last the throne did fall,
Into the bastard baby's thrall.
And centuries old Pole did die,
To give way for the Commonwealth,
Heralded with the bastard's cry.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Aforementioned bastard baby grew up to be the King of Poland after the legitimate Miroslav children were wiped out by presumably what was the righteous wrath of God inflicting horrible plagues upon the Kingdom of Poland in punishment for the lusty King's transgression against his wife. The Bastard son was the sole surviving heir. Unfortunately the bastard was not fully legitimized as a Mirolav and so took the throne as King of Rostov, not Miroslav.
In response the Serbian Empire destroyed the Kingdom of Poland and stripped the Bastard Rostov of all his lands, leaving him poor after two decades of rule in which he fostered dangerously close ties between Poland, the Norwegians and the Swedes. He died of depression. His sacrifice was not in vain; in allowing the Serbian Empire to once more reorganize Poland the Serbian Empire was able to conquer Lithuania and found the Serbian Commonwealth.

After generations of the great reconquering the full extent of the New Roman Serbian Empire had been achieved. Emperor Ninoslav Miroslav the Fowler had succeeded his forefather's dream - that is until the Emperor of Russia died.

Leaving Emperor Ninoslav in charge of every Empire in Christian Europe.
Then the actual full extent of the Serbian Empire had been achieved.

Unfortunately due to the limits of the Eternal Serbia challenge I was determined to return to the pre-campaign borders of the glorious Empire of Serbia. It was in God's grace that Serbia removed Kebab and infidel, it was not in Serbia's grace to abuse such favour. At any rate the race was on to change the succession laws on many of the newly founded/conquered titles before Emperor Ninoslav died and the Empire fragmented in a chaotic fashion.

Starting from a lowly count of Rama, progressing to a Duke and then King of Serbia, progressing from King of Serbia to King of Serbia, Bulgaria and Croatia to Emperor of the Serbian Empire and finally Emperor of the world - that was very difficult to say the least. Yet redrawing the lines was moreso. Each successor Emperor was to get one Empire title, governing very defined borders. This meant erasing all of the borders the Karlings had drawn, the Asturians had drawn, the Celts and drawn, the Amirids had drawn and so on. Centuries of chaotic Kingdoms sprawling over several de jure Empires all sorted out through years of title revoking, vassal transferring, law changing and Emperor grooming. By the end of the bureaucratic nightmare Emperor Ninoslav went from being one of the most beloved people on the planet (going from righteous liberator of people embroiled in Karling conflict) to one of the most hated (increased crown authority, elective and gavelkind replaced with primogeniture, border redefinition involving certain persons being made destitute - if you slipped and fell on some mud Ninoslav probably had some bureaucratic input in ensuring there was just enough mud for you to soil yourself). The only thing that mattered however is that the Emperors-to-be absolutely loved Ninoslav, and one by one they were given their Emperor titles, automatically granting them independence.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All 9 Emperors were highly pleased with the outcome. They were so clean. So logical. SO SERBIA. The borders I mean, that's what was clean, logical and SERBIA. There were some compromises (Scandinavian, Malian, Abyssinian and Arabian campaign canceled - Ninoslav would not live to see any of the 4 completed before the greater Empire collapsed under bureaucratic pressure), some remnants of the old world (an independent Karling still exists within the Holy Serbian Empire, the Catholic Knight orders still hold strongholds throughout Europe, most notably the Teutonic Knights in Germany and Scandinavia and the Knights of Calatrava who still hold significant grounds in Spain) and there are certainly some future issues in the brewing. The Empire of Serbian Britannia was rapidly formed and conquered with the support of an Irish count and a Breton Queen (ironically the Scottish used her to press a claim on Britanny - when the Serbians arrived she joined the Serbian Empire and used her claim to take over Scotland instead) both made rulers of Ireland and Scotland respectively. This is all and well while the Serbian King, the Irish King and the Scottish Queen all live indebted and grateful to Emperor Ninoslav, yet once they're all dead and old loyalties forgotten conflict will arise. Serbian Rus also has a bit too much of Lithuania and the Serbian Empire has a bit of the Holy Serbian Empire (the Kingdom of Frisia could not be handed over as the title had become tangled in Serbian lands), Malta became independent (it's so insignificant I neither noticed myself gaining or losing it) but most worrying of all is once again the Eastern Serbian Empire. The original Empire of Serbia was based off of the Carpathian Empire, yet when Serbia took over the Byzantine Empire and refounded the Roman Empire the Carpathian Empire became a titular title and its old lands incorporated into the Roman Empire. Then things got complicated.
The Roman Empire was once more split into the Serbian Empire, still holding the Roman Empire title, and the Eastern Serbian Empire (which disastrously held no Empire title). Having learned from this mistake the Eastern Serbian Empire is now held by the King who holds the formerly titular title, but the lands are still shown as being de jure a part of the Byzantine Empire. This is an issue as the Byzantine Empire no longer exists, the title officially destroyed after the Roman Empire was reformed. Time will tell if the titular title will make a difference and allow a new Empire to be born - and for it to mature, and not die stillborn like the first or second Eastern Empires.

With all that said, those borders are fucking sexy.

And just look at all those Serbian capitals! LOOK AT THEM! LOOK AT THEM FOR SERBIA!

Each one tells the story of their Empires.
The British capital is located in Cornwall; being near the Merchant Republic of Gwynedd made Cornwall richer than London. The Emperor of Britain also grew up amongst Welsh Lords and considers his Welsh Kingdom above his English one, evidently finding distaste in the still heavily Catholic England.
The French capital is located in Paris. No surprises there, if your nation is formed by ripping apart 6 Karling Kingdoms you're damn well going to pick the capital richest, strongest and best placed to dealing with rebellions and cultural assimilation.
The Spanish capital sits in Calatrava. Given that the Knights of Calatrava are yet to surrender in full the last of their defiant Kingdom, the message is clear.
Most amusing of all is how both the Serbian Empire and the Eastern Serbian Empire have their capitals located on either side of the Dnieper river. Both Empires are linked to one another with incredibly close cooperation. Both maintain their capitals outside of the reach of scheming nobles in the hearts of their own nations. They keep their families away from the reach of prying armies, be they Muslim or Faction.

Now, I also don't want to underplay the actual formation of the Nine Empires. Taking on the Karlings and Asturians was bloody hard. It reached the point where I was declaring war on all of Europe every time, since their collective alliances meant I would be fighting them all anyways any time I made a move on any of them. Catholics banded with catholics, holy orders conjured thousands of fanatics from thin air, vikings raided the coasts, the Sunni waged Jihad and the Karlings banded together with such ferocity that they were alike a hound of rabid dogs, who, having fought each other tooth and claw have turned on the Serbian wolf as one. I had to utilize every soldier well (even though a few ten thousand died here and there while I was observing a battle elsewhere), root out the heretics and Karlings working against the invasion from within and even had to deal with schemers from within (Venice was destroyed 3 times). Staging an invasion of Britain whilst also fighting everyone from Muslim Marrakech through Catholic Spain and Karling Europe was a monstrous endeavour! It was only made worse by England being full to the brim with exiled Asturian and Galician Kings! (For some reason the Castillans had managed to inherit British lands).

The reward is clear. The Karlings are a shadow of their great house, replaced by a far brighter sun.

MIROSLAV STRONK

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Other than a few Catholic strongholds held onto by stubborn Crusaders, Orthodoxy will take over Europe. Rooting out and converting all the Catholics who still remain will be a far lengthier task mostly for the other 8 Emperors to try and figure out. The Norse religion still persists, having tortured all missionaries sent to convert them to death. The Romuva were more candid and amenable to Serbian preachers however, and Russian paganism will soon be a thing of the past. Western Islam too will likely perish, and with the expansion of the Kingdom of Africa the Arabian Peninsula could also soon have an increasingly large Orthodox population. Mali and Abyssinia still remain unchallenged Jewish and Miaphysite Empires.
When it comes to culture wars, thanks to centuries under the Serbian Empire and Serbian Rus the majority of the slavic world is Serbian cultured. Whether the West takes up Serbian values or the Serbian lords adopt Western values remains to be seen.

A map showing family spread. All that purple is the land controlled by the Miroslav family. Nine Empires and one Kingdom. An attack on one is an attack on all; an attack by one is an attack by all. The best part about this unilateral Miroslav warring is that it forces each Empire into alliances with one another - as long as such wars occur, Miroslav cannot attack Miroslav.

When the borders were being drawn, one thing of note was deciding on how the merchant republics were to be split. Several merchant republics had been (re)created by Emperor Ninoslav or his grandfather Emperor Nircea. The British Serbs got Gwynedd, the Hispanian Serbs got Granada, the Italian Serbs got Genoa and the Eastern Serbian Empire got the black sea merchants of Chorsun. That left the greatest republic of Pest for the Serbian Empire (the republic of Pest had existed during times where its competition had been killed by Byzantines, Karlings or Serbs) in addition to the Republic of Venice (who gained independence, I only noticed too late that I didn't transfer them to Italy and so they had to be sacked yet again and reclaimed for Serbia).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At its peak the Serbian Empire was bloody strong. With 1k short of 70,000 elite cavalry in the form of Gusar retinues and hundreds of thousands in levies no force on the globe could stand up to the Serbian Empire except itself. Which would be boring.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Managing the relations between 10 great rulers all of the same dynasty, all fighting to be the dominant ruler of the Miroslav family - that is Fun of the Dwarf Fortress definition! It has practical benefits too. The Serbian Empire got to keep all its retinues despite giving the majority of its lands independence. This makes the Serbian Empire have far more troops than it has any right to, and also means that once the other Empires catch up in the retinue department the Miroslav family will command absolutely ridiculous amounts of troops. Already they command over 400,000 soldiers between them, 130,000 more than under a sole administration. There is also admittedly something far more challenging, something far more entertaining trying to uphold the family rather than your own Imperial line. A score goes up by insane amounts pretty much on its own - raising the family prestige is far, far, far, faaaaaaaaaar harder.
Freudian satisfaction in seeing the majority of the top 20 military powers being Miroslav states may also factor into things.

Seriously, does anyone else consider House prestige > Score?

[hector13]

I've recently started looking at my house prestige a lot, but then again I only have 1 empire title as a pagan.

Well done on your conquest!

[FritzPL]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[BFEL]

LW, how did the Holy Sepulchre get THAT MUCH FRIKKIN GOLD? Do you SEE THAT? IT HAS OVER SEVENTY-THOUSAND GOLD. WHUT.

[dennislp3]

lots of donations? Do AI donate for piety like you can? thats 300 a pop

[Sheb]

Also inheritance from people joining the order I guess. The Templars have 200k gold in my game.

[dennislp3]

As for ELECTIVE gavelkind (not tried in regular)...if you are willing to slay all your boys or not have any...and you have expanded your dynasty enough then if a cousin or something is elected he takes all titles even if he has brothers...so I usually just kill all my boys so one person always inherits unless I only have 1 boy OR I have some good congenital traits going

[nogoodnames]

After working my way from count to duke I was able to take advantage of a few shaky successions to institute elective monarchy and get elected as Basileus of the Byzantine empire. I hadn't planned on wielding so much power, but since it fell into my lap I decided to try my hand at restoring the Roman empire. The game, however, seems determined to not make my task easy. The HRE has only gotten bigger, the Seljuks have managed to remain stable and the Shia Caliphate has engulfed all of east Africa and most of Arabia and become a giant blob of death.

I got to experience the full power of the Caliphate when the Caliph declared a jihad for Byzantine Africa which all of his vassals answered. My only ally was Rus, and they spent the entire war fighting Poland. It was nearly fifty thousand Byzantines against at least a hundred thousand Shia. Every time I smashed one of their armies another 20k stack would appear from out of the fog of war. I sent a counter offensive deep behind their lines and captured their capital, but eventually had to withdraw to reinforce the African front. Tens of thousands of men were lost, but we held the line. Eventually the Caliph was forced to admit defeat, but not before the Basileus was maimed in battle, guaranteeing his great reign would end soon. As penance, every prisoner taken by the Byzantines was executed so that their heads might decorate the walls of Constantinople.

Shortly afterward, my character died and his third son took the throne. Unfortunately the new Basileus is not as well liked as his predecessors, he's fairly old and he lacks a good heir. I predict lots of internal strife which could be disastrous if another jihad gets called. After the jihad, the Caliph declared a war on the Seljuks. Still in the mood for revenge, I decided to capitalize on this by declaring a holy war for Jerusalem. I faced minimal resistance, quickly capturing the land and providing enough of a distraction for the Seljuks to get the upper hand. That leaves just Rome to capture before I can mend the Schism, but it probably doesn't help my chances of not getting jihaded.

[Sheb]

Nah, but mending the schism means more Orthodox rulers that can help you when you do get Jihaded.

[Sheb]

There was also a bishop (he only owned ONE church!) who had 60K gold.

Was he the Bishop of Cluny? Because there is also an even to give them money.

[nogoodnames]

By the way, is there any way to see the arrival dates of an army for each step of the journey? Or even better, the movement costs between provinces in general? I'm tired of getting screwed over by unexpectedly long travel times while the AI can zoom around taking the optimal course every time.

Also, when the great schism is mended and Catholicism becomes an Orthodox heresy it doesn't gain the heresy ability to spread between provinces, correct?