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[Digital Hellhound]

There is a historical Nestorian Khan in-game at some point. The Mongols converting to Nestorianism makes more sense than going Catholic or Orthodox given their influence in Central Asia, anyhow.

@Descan: Conquer Abyssinia, form Abyssinian Empire. Waaaay cooler.

[lemon10]

Yeah, there really should be some extra defenses on the vatican, as it is its pretty much trivial to invade and overthrow it.

In my opinion, it should be pretty much impossible without being a massive empire (since all the catholic countries should just join in to defend them).

[PanH]

It wouldn't work, since the pope has a really small realm. You could just come in, and assault his holdings with your retinues, and the war would be over before the other rulers could gather their troops. Anyway, you can have the pope as a vassal only if you're emperor. I've seen aggressive papacies, but they're few.

[Descan]

I coooould go after the Abyssinian empire, but my King is Egyptian Arabic. So... It just makes more sense to go after the Arabic empire.

[EuchreJack]

My bishop already almost hated me, I think for being lustful (and also because I accidentally fired him from the council, brought him down to -5 I think).

Eh, that's mild dislike at the worst.  When people have -75 reaction, then they hate you.   

And once you have ambitious pretenders, you'll be seeing numbers like that a lot.

[lemon10]

It wouldn't work, since the pope has a really small realm. You could just come in, and assault his holdings with your retinues, and the war would be over before the other rulers could gather their troops. Anyway, you can have the pope as a vassal only if you're emperor. I've seen aggressive papacies, but they're few.

Now, its not about subjugating the papacy, but you can bet that if some random duke in the middle ages declared war on the papacy for any reason, the entirety of catholic europe (or at least the biggest nations) would band together to wipe him off the face of the map.

Now, I would assume defense would work like a crusade in that it would draw tons of catholic countries in to defend it.

It would actually be pretty hard, assuming that you aren't empire sized that is. If all nearby italian countries rushed to their defense, and the pope instantly hired as many mercenaries as possible, by the time you could land any soldiers, they could easily get 30k troops defending faster then you could reasonably get any non-reutine troops there. In another month or two when the HRE+England+France got over there (which is probably ablout how long it would take you to gather all of your troops), there would easily be enough troops defening to fight off anything short of a empire size force.

Using just reutines would be tough, you would probably need +10k to take the entire province without regular troops (which if you could do, you would probably have a large enough empire to take thm in a regular fight), and even that could be countered by the pope just hiring a bunch of mercenaries and rushing you before you could win all the sieges.

[EuchreJack]

I agree, the unlanded pope would launch a crusade the second he lost Rome, and take it back.

This actually happened a few times in the middle ages, which is why the Papacy hid under the Holy Roman Empire's coat tails in real life and gave them the Holy Roman part.

[PanH]

It would actually be pretty hard, assuming that you aren't empire sized that is. If all nearby italian countries rushed to their defense, and the pope instantly hired as many mercenaries as possible, by the time you could land any soldiers, they could easily get 30k troops defending faster then you could reasonably get any non-reutine troops there. In another month or two when the HRE+England+France got over there (which is probably ablout how long it would take you to gather all of your troops), there would easily be enough troops defening to fight off anything short of a empire size force.

The pope already buys tons of mercenaries, because he's richer than Croesus. He often buys a 330gold mercenary from the start of a war.
Also, something that doesn't work very well with crusade is that they can be lost before kingdom/empire troops arrive.
And I don't see why the pope should have any kind of protection. The historical popes often waged war, without all the catholics coming to his help. The pope should play more aggressively, that's all.

[stabbymcstabstab]

I say the best way to defeat the pope is getting a well liked anti-pope, I quickly bankrupted the papacy during a crusade that way.

[scriver]

Can you decide who inherits the anti-papacy, or is it random?

[Felius]

Can you decide who inherits the anti-papacy, or is it random?

You can decide. It might requires free investiture, but I'm not absolutely certain about it.

[EnigmaticHat]

It would actually be pretty hard, assuming that you aren't empire sized that is. If all nearby italian countries rushed to their defense, and the pope instantly hired as many mercenaries as possible, by the time you could land any soldiers, they could easily get 30k troops defending faster then you could reasonably get any non-reutine troops there. In another month or two when the HRE+England+France got over there (which is probably ablout how long it would take you to gather all of your troops), there would easily be enough troops defening to fight off anything short of a empire size force.

The pope already buys tons of mercenaries, because he's richer than Croesus. He often buys a 330gold mercenary from the start of a war.
Also, something that doesn't work very well with crusade is that they can be lost before kingdom/empire troops arrive.
And I don't see why the pope should have any kind of protection. The historical popes often waged war, without all the catholics coming to his help. The pope should play more aggressively, that's all.

The problem is you can swoop in and take the center the Catholic church, which is right next to a giant Catholic empire, and is held by a head of religion who has historically been very good at getting people to support his wars, and suffer none of the obvious consequences.

[PanH]

I agree that the organization of the catholic church (and theocracies in general) needs to be reworked, but having a crusade war for every war the pope does seems silly. Hell, I imagine realms who don't like the current pope could help you too. The AI doesn't set anti popes atm I think, so the player is the only one who cares about pope. Also, how the fuck does inbreed cynical pope can be elected ?

[Descan]

Here's hoping the next major update is a theocracy DLC

[Teneb]

I agree that the organization of the catholic church (and theocracies in general) needs to be reworked, but having a crusade war for every war the pope does seems silly. Hell, I imagine realms who don't like the current pope could help you too. The AI doesn't set anti popes atm I think, so the player is the only one who cares about pope. Also, how the fuck does inbreed cynical pope can be elected ?

Money, of course. Or assassinating everyone else.

I've had one game where the papacy took on the Fatimids solo and conquered all of Egypt. In 1100 too.

Spoiler: The Pope, complete badass (click to show/hide)