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Author Topic: Crusader Kings 2 is released.  (Read 2112800 times)

Denzi

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #705 on: April 05, 2012, 12:41:11 pm »

No. "Consumers" protest high prices, bad service, or whatever it is they are dissatisfied with, by voicing their dislike to the provider and other people alike, then not buying the product. Otherwise there is no feedback to the provider, they have no idea why the consumer choose to refuse the product, or even if the consumer ever even noticed there was a product to begin with.

I'll give you that consumers should voice their dislike, but it makes no sense when the consumers are the very same people who asked for the goods they are producing. All the people who are complaining that this DLC is 'content-lite' (That is disputable, but not part of this argument. We can assume that the DLC will have an impact on any solitary game of CK2, and thus will last as long as that game would).

Quote
Here's a comparison: I paid roughly €40 for the content in the original game. They demand €5 for what is a pittance of that content. It isn't a reasonable prize.

What's more, your "go buy that other thing that costs you less" logic doesn't apply either. Games aren't milk, I can't just go to another store or brand and get a cheaper bottle of the same stuff - not only are the games unique products in general, I certainly can't buy DLCs from any other producer than Paradox. Especially true since there aren't even any other developer making the kind of Grand Strategy games Paradox does, they have a monopoly on their niche.

So, from what you are saying here, the players who are entertained by grand strategy games can only be entertained by grand strategy games, and thus it is impossible to compare the entertainment you can get from CK2 to any other title out there that is not also grand strategy?

That is just a silly statement to make. Of course you can compare how much entertainment you get from one game to another. You can compare how much entertainment you get from a book or a movie or anything else the same way. At the end of the day you are buying games because you have time you want to waste and want to get the best valued entertainment. After all, if you didn't have time to waste how do you have the time to play games in the first place?

Since you can measure the quantity of time any piece of entertainment can take up (i.e. the time you spend interacting with it) and you can measure the price, finding a number that takes both into account is entirely valid (The number could measure fun too, if fun was something that could ever be measured ever)

Once we establish how much you(general you, not specific you) are willing to pay for an hour of entertainment, then it is easy to tell what is a good value as far as a game goes, or even a movie or a book. It has nothing to do with you being able to purchase the same product at the same place (we are not talking about brands of milk here) it has to do with having alternatives. So what if the DLC isn't something you are interested in, do not buy it! So what if the milk you want to get is bad today, do not buy it! Unless you have a specific need for it (i.e. need the milk to bake a cake, which kind of makes milk a bit of a weighted example because it has uses beyond simple consumption, which is all a game is good for) you don't have to buy it if it's not worth it to buy it.

A much better example for games-as-food would be going to the store, seeing they are selling pizza for more than you want to buy pizza for. Well you really want something to eat, so you decide to buy a steak instead. Sure they might not taste the same, but they both fulfill the same 'need' (hunger, versus the need to waste time).

It's not about games being simple substitutes for each other but about games being alternatives to other games. Don't like the $5 DLC they are making? Don't buy it, instead go buy a humble bundle and get a lot more entertainment out of your $5.
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scriver

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #706 on: April 05, 2012, 12:51:52 pm »

To derail the topic further, what do you eat that you only spend 5 euros a week on food? Do you grow your own food or something?

I buy large amount of base foods (especially things that are down-priced because they just have or is about to "expire"), cook big watery soups and put them in the freezer, then add a little cheap meat at the reheating if I can. Sure, it turns into an unappetising soggy mess, but it's food. Noodles and noodle-likes are really cheap as well, and yeah, you got to keep an eye out for the "expired" goods - it's "best before", not "never ever eat after" dates after all. Most things are fine for a few more days. Oh, and I definitely doesn't eat meat every day.

That should have been "dinner budget" (or at least food-that-isn't-breakfast budget), though, not food. Breakfast is my favourite meal, so I spend more on it, relatively speaking. An important distinguish, so I admit I made a mistake there.


edit:
I'll give you that consumers should voice their dislike, but it makes no sense when the consumers are the very same people who asked for the goods they are producing.

It makes sense when the goods are more expensive then they think they are worth. Just because somebody asked for a feature does not mean they are (or should be) prepared to pay any amount for it.


Quote
So, from what you are saying here, the players who are entertained by grand strategy games can only be entertained by grand strategy games, and thus it is impossible to compare the entertainment you can get from CK2 to any other title out there that is not also grand strategy?

No, I am saying that the "go buy something else" logic only make sense if there are other similar product on the market, like milk or cars. No other developer makes Grand Strategy games. No other game exist that focus on people and dynastic intrigues during the high middle ages. Had you said "if you don't like Call of Duty, go play [other generic shooter]", it would make sense, because they both provide the same kind of experience. If there is no similar product I can choose, there is no relevant alternative, and the "vote with your wallet" argument is useless.

And, once again, nobody's protesting the DLC, only how expensive it is. There is a big difference. I'm not uninterested in the DLC, I'm just not interested in paying more than 1 or 2 Euro for it. So of course I won't spend anything on it before it gets cheap enough. That's self-explanatory.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 01:13:52 pm by scriver »
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postal83

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #707 on: April 05, 2012, 01:04:55 pm »

Anyways, moving on....  Anyone feel like trying a succession game?  Heir-to-heir?
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dennislp3

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #708 on: April 05, 2012, 01:36:19 pm »

Ramen noodle diet! >.>
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Denzi

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #709 on: April 05, 2012, 02:16:04 pm »

Anyways, moving on....  Anyone feel like trying a succession game?  Heir-to-heir?
I'd definitely consider it, though I'd be more interested in the story sections than in participating (mostly on account of how little I actually pay attention to this game when it's running).

What would be a right dwarfy place to start as? Someplace in Germany or Ireland? Would people be interested in starting as a count or what?
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postal83

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #710 on: April 05, 2012, 02:34:18 pm »

I like playing Ireland, it's a great place to start when learning the game...  I'm still far from mastering it by any means.  In a succession game, I don't mind where it starts, as my heir will have to mop up my mess  ;)
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mainiac

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #711 on: April 05, 2012, 03:30:46 pm »

Anyways, moving on....  Anyone feel like trying a succession game?  Heir-to-heir?
What would be a right dwarfy place to start as? Someplace in Germany or Ireland? Would people be interested in starting as a count or what?

I'm partial to house Tournikes.  At the starting date, they are the furthest south count of the Roman Levant possessions.  However that might be too easy because they start under the Roman umbrella.  On the other hand, it lets you potentially become emperor which is awesomesauce.

The northernmost Ethiopian dynasty get's swiftly annexed most games.  How about them?
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Leatra

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #712 on: April 05, 2012, 03:31:43 pm »

A count in Ireland would be cool.
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mainiac

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #713 on: April 05, 2012, 03:41:45 pm »

How about we play as Navarra and edit our names into the basque culture files?  Or for extra fun we could do the count of  Viscaya.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Lord Dullard

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #714 on: April 05, 2012, 03:43:46 pm »

Do it. Is there a way to edit the genealogy so that the founder of the Dynasty is 'Toady One'?  8)
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mainiac

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #715 on: April 05, 2012, 05:12:29 pm »

Should be doable.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Rakonas

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #716 on: April 06, 2012, 12:12:25 am »

How about we mod in an event which gives the dwarf trait to anyone who has a dwarf parent. Then make the count of some mountain province (Thinking either Norway or Switzerland) have the dwarf trait.
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dennislp3

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #717 on: April 06, 2012, 12:19:02 am »

need to have them come from the Alps...much more fitting and worthy of a mountain region for Dwarfs
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Rakonas

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #718 on: April 06, 2012, 12:22:26 am »

On the other hand, Norwegian mountain names have very dwarfy names like the Jotunheimen mountains. It might also make sense to be Armenian or something because I think certain culture groups have more beards.
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mainiac

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #719 on: April 06, 2012, 12:33:10 am »

Navarra is the most dwarvy place on the map:
1) Mountains
2) Small culture so we can mod the names to McUrist and the like
3) Small culture so they are xenophobic to the entire outside world
4) Gender equality in succession is as close as we can get to gender indistinguishableness
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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