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[scriver]

Well yeah but you could say that about anything.

[pisskop]

they can if you feed them wives often enough.
the kid isnt competing with a whole lot of skilled workers.  mostly lowborn trash.  and evem education can usually make up any difference

[Persus13]

I understand this, but Christian theocracies do not follow any sort of dynastic lineage, and moreover, since priests are not allowed to marry and have children, it would be impossible to continue your lineage anyway. They got around elections with merchant republics, but theocracies are already reliant on members of noble dynasties being elected into them, meaning that there's no easy way around the elective succession and it would be utter hell trying to incorporate support for playing them.

The key question would be, how hard would it be to code this in so that you don't follow a dynasty?

[Loud Whispers]

I understand this, but Christian theocracies do not follow any sort of dynastic lineage, and moreover, since priests are not allowed to marry and have children, it would be impossible to continue your lineage anyway. They got around elections with merchant republics, but theocracies are already reliant on members of noble dynasties being elected into them, meaning that there's no easy way around the elective succession and it would be utter hell trying to incorporate support for playing them.

How about you play as a monastic order or pope and then try stack the college of cardinals or the order with your dynasty's members
That's how you do it in ck2 already, but with that mechanic you'd be doing it from the inside

[Criptfeind]

Well yeah but you could say that about anything.

As much as I'd love to play the lizard men from the center of the earth that secretly control medieval society though the medium of first person dance contests I unfortunately don't think the argument actually applies equally to everything.

[Tawa]

Well, the game is explicitly designed as a "dynasty simulator". Paradox advertises it as such, Wikipedia describes it as such, and it's specifically described how the goal is the glorification of your dynasty in everything from the screen that pops up when you start the game to the game over screen.

Caliphs and Fylkirs are interesting because they combine secular power with religious power. The Pope would be dull because he's a religious power but only a regional secular ruler--he's not the emperor of all Scandinavia or the padishah of Arabia, he's the count of Rome with a king-level title.

Not only that, but the church is already built up as more of an NPC than a player--the Pope's existence is currently to declare crusades, grant divorces, and with Sons of Abraham grant favors of money or claims to anyone who bribed him into power. Can you imagine how boring it would be to play him? You'd constantly be bombarded with requests to excommunicate so-and-so, to send such-and-such money, to give King John a claim on King Philipe's land, all entirely because of the opinion your character is calculated to have of other people, independent of what you as a player think of these NPCs.

I'm sorry if I come across as sarcastic or rude here, I don't mean to. I just think that cries to play a theocracy generally aren't really thought through from a gameplay point of view, they're more of a forbidden fruit situation where people want to play them because they're not allowed to.

(And it's already coded in to be able to play as nondynastic groups--IIRC, using console commands to play as the Pope, a knightly order, or a landed mercenary band reveals them to succeed the same way the Night's Watch does in AGOTmod.)

[Criptfeind]

That all seems to be "I don't think they sound interesting. So no one else should be allowed to play as them."

Once again though, what do you actually loose from your mostly single player game (or even if you play this multiplayer, what do you loose that a single game rule disallowing them couldn't fix) from other people getting to play as these powers?

[Tawa]

You don't. But the game is a dynasty simulator and the church is not a dynasty. It's not what Crusader Kings is about.

And I'm not describing why I don't think the Pope would be interesting to play as, I'm describing why playing as a theocracy would be a horrifying mess that would require the entire game to be reworked because it was designed with the idea that theocracies = NPCs in mind.

[Sheb]

There's already a mod that let you play the papacy.

[Neonivek]

You don't. But the game is a dynasty simulator and the church is not a dynasty. It's not what Crusader Kings is about.

And I'm not describing why I don't think the Pope would be interesting to play as, I'm describing why playing as a theocracy would be a horrifying mess that would require the entire game to be reworked because it was designed with the idea that theocracies = NPCs in mind.

Goodness... it would mean they would have to input some expansion content instead of add-ons. Add some layers to the strategy board and instead of individual theocratic entities they all work within a web that influences and can be influenced.

Though I am not sure how playable one would want it. I'd probably have it layer onto the existing gameplay.

I mean Churches are not Dynasts but members of the Church sure are Dynasts

[Tawa]

You don't. But the game is a dynasty simulator and the church is not a dynasty. It's not what Crusader Kings is about.

And I'm not describing why I don't think the Pope would be interesting to play as, I'm describing why playing as a theocracy would be a horrifying mess that would require the entire game to be reworked because it was designed with the idea that theocracies = NPCs in mind.

Goodness... it would mean they would have to input some expansion content instead of add-ons. Add some layers to the strategy board and instead of individual theocratic entities they all work within a web that influences and can be influenced.

...Have you played Sons of Abraham? This is exactly what it does.

[Neonivek]

They have had... Three-Four Layer expansions to my knowledge... Though One or two of them are probably more accurately event packs.

Edit: Though researching it... Some Theocracies WERE Dynasties.

[Criptfeind]

I mean, it's also a grand strategy game about playing the major powers of Middle Ages Europe. But here we are, fighting off Aztec as the grand merchant emperor of India or whatever. I'm not sure I'm really swayed by the idea that it's somehow be unacceptable mission creep even if it didn't have dynastic parts to it...

As for how hard it'd be to make work? Maybe it'd be hard to make it interesting, adding systems and stuff, that could certainly make a good dlc. But just like, playing as the pope doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to make possible. Like, why would theologies be more of a "horrifying mess that would require the entire game to be reworked" because they are npcs more then Muslims. Or Tribal. Or Republics. Or soon to be China.

I think saying "This is how the game is and it can't ever be changed." Just shows a lack of imagination. The game has changed massively over the past five years. Allowing someone to play as the pope wouldn't be that insane of a thing to do in a dlc. I honestly don't think it'd even be insane in the base game, even if maybe a bit lacking in systems.

[scriver]

Well yeah but you could say that about anything.

As much as I'd love to play the lizard men from the center of the earth that secretly control medieval society though the medium of first person dance contests I unfortunately don't think the argument actually applies equally to everything.

That just sounds like "I don't think they would be interesting, so nobody else should be allowed to play as them" to me.

[Teneb]

Christian theocracies can totally be dynastic.