Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[varsens]

I'm starting to get into df2010 after waiting since it came out for all the worse bugs to be squashed but I'm having a terrible time training attributes up before I draft dwarves into the military. I've got a level 15 miner (3 levels above legendary), who started as weak and flimsy and is now only slow to tire, weak and flimsy. I've read that attributes increase more quickly when dwarves spar, and even seen a bug on the tracker(http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=803) that seems to be related but was supposedly resolved in the previous version.

I like that attribute increases are harder to come by, but if above legendary in civilian skills translates to only one measly attribute increase, then it ruins all those training programs people had come up, which were fun.  How does it make sense that a dwarf who's been doing nothing but mining the past two years has had no benefit to his physical abilities?

Anyone else experiencing something similar? Should I just not worry about it, start drafting, and then the increases will come? How much do attributes matter in combat these days anyway? Thanks in advance.

[Abaddon]

I've found that giving them decent armor/weapons and letting them have at it works too, but you might enjoy babying your dwarves.   

I wonder if those misc skills give any attribute gains?  I've found my 1x1 meeting area where my 100+ dwarves all spend some time has raised a lot of the more useless dwarves misc skills up to legendary.

[dree12]

Mining should give increases to Strength, Toughness, Endurence, and Agility (being a military skill). Though maybe the fact that Toady fixed that bug caused it to gain in the mental skills instead. Either way, make sure your dwarves have similar tasks enabled (mining~pump operating, dying~weaving, etc.), so they always have work.

[NW_Kohaku]

Hmm... I'm not currently doing any serious forts, so...

Mind doing an expirement?

Go into your Creature_Standard.txt raw (in your game), and somewhere in the dwarf description, add in the following tokens:

[PHYS_ATT_RATES:STRENGTH:50000:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[PHYS_ATT_RATES:ENDURANCE:1:NONE:NONE:NONE]

Then go back into the game, let it run while your miner digs his heart out, and see what happens to his stats.

It might actually be better to use DFHack or one of its derivatives to see what his attributes are in solid numbers, rather than relative values.

[varsens]

It seems like the latest version of dwarftherapist doesn't show attributes from its 'Show details...' description of dwarves, I remember it in previous versions so maybe I'm just missing it. I'll download DFhack if you want.

[NW_Kohaku]

It seems like the latest version of dwarftherapist doesn't show attributes from its 'Show details...' description of dwarves, I remember it in previous versions so maybe I'm just missing it. I'll download DFhack if you want.

No, Chmod didn't get around to updating that, yet.  (I think he's on hiatus, in fact, because of some arguments he has had with people who were overly impatient, so he basically decided it wasn't worth the headache.)

I remember there's Runesmith (or something like that), which is the new flavor of Dwarf Companion.  That should have the data.

[varsens]

I downloaded dfhack but from the description of the various tools in the readme, it wasn't obvious to me which one would allow me to see a dwarfs stats.

I was also unable to find "PHYS_ATT_RATES" anywhere within creature_standard.txt. You want me to add them, not modify them, is that correct?

If you're thinking there's something wrong, it might be relevant to mention I'm using mike mayday's latest release. The release notes for the version I have do refer to 31.12, so I don't think its something as simple as me just having the version before attributes got fixed.

Runesmith reports 801 strength and 753 toughness. Let me back up my save and I'll try the test.

[drayath]

Hi,

I previously done a bit of testing of this in the latest version of df (.12), performing all civilian skills does now give attributes gains.

df 31.12, with the stat decay removal cheat (i.e. these are absolute changes, in practice also need to remove stat decay from attribute) single person doing task for 2 month (inclusive of drinking, sleeping etc). all required resources 1 square from workshop, all stats set to 1000 prior to task.

    *  wood cutter (lvl 0->4): ~40 points per month in str, agility, endurance, willpower, spacial sense, kin sense

    * masonry (60 tables, lvl 5->6.5): 40 points per month in str, agility, endurance, creativity, spacial awareness
    * herbalism (lvl 5 -> 8): ~32 points per month in agility, memory, kin sense
    * mining (900 soil mined, lvl 5->12): ~25 points per month in str, tough, endurance, willpower, spacial sense, kin sense
    * Weaver (~30 threads, lvl 5->5.9): 25 points per month in agi, creativity, spacial sense, kin sense
    * Clothier (~30 cloaks cloaks, lvl 5->5.9): 25 points per month in agi, creativity, spacial sense, kin sense
    * Furnace operator (~30 smelts, lvl 5->5.75): 20 points per month in str, toughness, endurance, analytical reasoning, kinetic sense
    * carpentry (95 beds, lvl 5->5.3): 10 points per month in str, agi, spacial sense, creativity
    * Idle: ~10 points per month in empathy, socal awareness, linguistics; 3 points per month in agility, kin sense, intuition
    * hauling: ~2 points per month in str, tough, endurance, willpower, kin sense

    * Furnace operator (lvl 15->17.5): 10 points per month in str, toughness, endurance, analytical reasoning, kinetic sense

Source: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010_Talk:Attribute#ixzz0wzI3aZMz

not precisely accurate but ~150 points for most levels of attributes (e.g. strong -> very strong)

[varsens]

Yikes! I think runesmith crashed my game, and apparently DF wasn't autosaving every spring so I've lost a couple years.

But looking at this save's stats, the miner is back to level 7 with 776 strength and 727 toughness. So I'm clearly experiencing something quite different than drayath. Is it possible that decay wiped out his attribute gain almost completely?

edit: Adding those two tokens to the raws caused his endurance to shoot up. In between the time I made this post and this edit his endurance shot up to "indefatigable", about 1800.

How do I find out the default setting for PHYS_ATT_RATES? Is it possible mine got messed up somehow?

[NW_Kohaku]

Oh, now that's practical information, thanks, drayath.

(hmm... so masonry is now better for stat gains than anything else?  Well, I guess it depends upon when they hit Legendary, though...)

I was also unable to find "PHYS_ATT_RATES" anywhere within creature_standard.txt. You want me to add them, not modify them, is that correct?

The majority of information on any given creature is actually defaulted out or handled by templates.  There's an absurd amount of text clutter that can accumulate on any given creature when you start really opening up the engine and tinkering around with modding creatures.  (Believe me, I tried it in my castes mod...)

Learning rates and attribute rates (plus most attribute ranges) are defaulted out by being left blank in the raws, so yes, you have to add those lines into the raws.

The thing to test is which attribute flies upwards, and which does nothing.  I think it's possible that "500" might be the amount of experience it takes to go up one point in an attribute, so doing a job that gives 30 experience per action would give you 30 points of endurance.  Meanwhile, your strength should be utterly unchanging.

Yikes! I think runesmith crashed my game, and apparently DF wasn't autosaving every spring so I've lost a couple years.

But looking at this save's stats, the miner is back to level 7 with 776 strength and 727 toughness. So I'm clearly experiencing something quite different than drayath. Is it possible that decay wiped out his attribute gain almost completely?

? 

You didn't save before making the raw changes? 

You have to close the game before altering the raws in your savegame, and load the game from that save to make those raw changes take effect.

As for rust, it shouldn't be TOO terrible, although I think the default is a little too harsh (you can start rusting far too soon, basically a nap is a long enough period of time to start the rust).  If you put in the ":NONE:NONE:NONE" part in the raws, you should have no rust whatsoever.

(And always make a backup save before using Runesmith...)

[drayath]

I saw attribute decay as about 1 point per month in some random stats.

One thing to note the extremes of an attribute need a lot more points to gain a level in ability, e.g. for strength require the following points for different levels; 450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250

could need 20 months of mining dirt or 40 of mining stone to get the 500 points required between the minimum ranks, and gain seem to scale a bit oddly in that seems to get less gains in a month that a lowly skilled miner.

This was all with a clean df.12 install, may be worth ensuring you are uptodate.

[varsens]

No I hadn't made the raw changes before saving. I simple loaded Runesmith to check the values before saving so I'd have the baseline before tampering with anything. Upon the alt-tab back into the game, it crashed. Its possible it wasn't runesmith, I'd just never gotten a crash from alt-tabbing in this version yet.

But yeah, I should've saved before running Runesmith, I guess i just assumed that if all I wanted it to do was read the attributes, rather than editing anything, I'd be safe. I'll know for next time, and either way its not a big deal.

edit: Yeah I'm positive, drayath, that the release of mike mayday's I've got is 31.12. Anyone have any reason to believe that anything he did would mess with this kind of stuff?

[Hyndis]

Attribute gains seem to be working just fine in 31.12. Dwarves that do physical work such as mining are extremely tough, strong, and agile. My bookkeeper is very frail but he's a genius.

If you want your dwarves to be strong give them heavy lifting tasks, such as mining. If you want them to be smart have them socialize or do bookkeeping.

[dree12]

So, is mining a civilian skill now? Or does it depend on wheather work is done military or civilian?

    * mining (900 soil mined, lvl 5->12): ~25 points per month in str, tough, endurance, willpower, spacial sense, kin sense

leads me to think it's only military still. I'd do a test with some military miners, but I have nothing to kill, and sparring is sporadic at best. Any suggestions?

[NW_Kohaku]

Attribute gains seem to be working just fine in 31.12. Dwarves that do physical work such as mining are extremely tough, strong, and agile. My bookkeeper is very frail but he's a genius.

If you want your dwarves to be strong give them heavy lifting tasks, such as mining. If you want them to be smart have them socialize or do bookkeeping.

Yes, but I'm more interested in knowing all the links between skills and attributes, and the way that the gain and rust works from a purely mechanical standpoint than simply knowing that they work.

Of course, even if it's good to know that labor dwarves get stronger, the problem is that Agility is the One Stat To Rule Them All.  You don't just walk faster, you do every single task in the game faster if you are agile.  (And Stength counteracts agility, so you actually want to avoid strength in any job that doesn't really require it...)  In fact, the best haulers wouldn't be strong, they would be very agile - but hauling apparently doesn't train agility, it trains strength, which slows haulers down.