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[Gnoll Fortress]

I mean really once you figured out one workshop you've got them all figured out they are essentially the same. I will admit it is harder to learn in 0.31 because you have to irrigate to get a farm up but once you have a farm and understand workshops the complexity of it is all gone. All you need is a farm some traps and a few workshops here and there, most of the complexity and confusion comes from bugs like needing to irrigate soil to farm. The game I would say is a little difficult to learn but very easy to master. So how hard was it for you to learn the basics of dwarf fortress and once you had the basics was it easy to master?

[Josephus]

Yeah, the basics were the hardest, even in 2d (although surprise attacks cave them a run for their money). Until now I haven't yet touched DF 2010 that much.

[m0nster]

I wouldn't say Dwarf Fortress is "hard" to learn. It's more... uhm... tricky? (Maybe I'm just splitting hairs )
The information delivered by the game aren't enough to get a fast start. You'll have to look up things in the Wiki, Forum etc.
As soon as I had the routine (and a search shortcut for the Wiki) it wasn't a problem at all.
Things may have changed with 0.31 since I started with 40d.

[Gnoll Fortress]

Yea, the issue I have is it was kinda like a tease I was assuming it would always be this difficult but I was disappointed about how easy it was to keep a mature fort going, There is almost nothing left for me to do after the third or fourth year.

[Alastar]

sorry for this, editing mess.

[Alastar]

It's easy to learn enough to get by, and many early difficulties come from a needlessly arcane user interface (e.g. i wish i could do more things from the unit list).

However, mastering it... how do we define mastering? How many dwarves would you need to keep 200 slackers safe and ecstatic? Probably not many, but I don't know how many... let alone what would be the most reliable and elegant way of automating things. I don't even know how to set up the most efficient high-pressure water transportation system, despite much experimenting. With just minor alterations to the way sieges work, defensive tactics would become legitimate challenges... atm you can simply abuse pathfinding quirks until invaders commit suicide.

There is a lot of complexity there, some of it emergent. However, the game currently does not require us to understand the complexity to succeed with most projects we're likely to come up with.

[stolide]

Until you have built a computer in the game, you have not mastered it. (A master being someone of the highest skill around, and computers have already been made)

[NW_Kohaku]

Until you have built a computer in the game, you have not mastered it. (A master being someone of the highest skill around, and computers have already been made)

HIGHEST?!  Pfft, so much more to learn, little grasshopper.  Master is merely rank 13, the highest level of skill is obviously the rank 20, Legendary +5 Player of Dwarf Fortress. 

Anyway, no, DF is not that complex.  Aside from its military (which gets far too much developer attention), it's downright simple compared to games like the Sierra City Builder games (Pharoah, Emperor, Caesar), or even City Life. 

You certainly CAN go building megaprojects, but the game itself is just a hollow shell with a "Physics Engine, Social Models, Economics, Ecosystems, AI, Interdependant Industries - Coming Soon!" sign on it. 

In fact, it's pretty amazing the amount of anger I've recieved specifically because the farming suggestion was making the game "Too Complex" even when they were the same people who derided the current farming model as "trivially easy".  People want to be proud of how "complex" the game they have is, but fear and hate the idea that it might actually become nearly as complex as they state it is.

[Josephus]

I just want complexity in social (not societal, mind you) interactions. -_-;

[NW_Kohaku]

I just want complexity in social (not societal, mind you) interactions. -_-;

Can you describe the difference?

[Josephus]

I just want complexity in social (not societal, mind you) interactions. -_-;

Can you describe the difference?

In one of your threads, (and I'm doing this from memory), you mentioned class warfare. I'd count that as societal. Conversely, social actions would be the individuals interacting with each other, leading to societal interactions.

Impute any mistakes in definition to the fact that I am not a native English speaker.

[heuristicus]

Until you have built a computer in the game, you have not mastered it. (A master being someone of the highest skill around, and computers have already been made)

HIGHEST?!  Pfft, so much more to learn, little grasshopper.  Master is merely rank 13, the highest level of skill is obviously the rank 20, Legendary +5 Player of Dwarf Fortress. 

Anyway, no, DF is not that complex.  Aside from its military (which gets far too much developer attention), it's downright simple compared to games like the Sierra City Builder games (Pharoah, Emperor, Caesar), or even City Life. 

I've seen you mention this in a couple of threads now, and I think I have to disagree with what you're saying.  Me and a friend used to play Pharaoh together when we were below 11 years of age.  We had everything pretty much down pat.  Farming working splendidly, irrigated and all that lark, a decent army (if necessary) which could repel any attacks, gods appeased with grand festivals as often as possible, and a booming economy, along with some amazing districts with pretty much the maximum tier of housing.  It may be the fact that we were playing on relatively simple maps, but I always remember having 100 culture, kingdom rating and all that stuff.

I'd like to see an example that demonstrates the complexity of the sierra games.  If two 10 year olds can play it and very successfully, then I don't really see what's so difficult about it.

I do, however, agree with your point that DF isn't actually hugely complicated.  I think it just throws you right in the deep end with a massive number of options and essentially no pointers on what to start off with, and lets you flail about until you find some kind of handhold.  After the initial "Oh gods, what the hell are all these commands" phase, and once you understand the basics of the fluid dynamics and so on, you can start playing around with the 'complex' stuff with a large chance of success.  The main thing which people might mistake for complexity is the interface and the graphics, which doesn't really impact on the complexity of the actual gameplay (although those struggling with the military interface might disagree).

[Tormy]

Dwarf Fortress - Hard to learn, easy to master

[Gnoll Fortress]

Heh I love emperor even down to the phony accent, I would argue that it too is about as complex as dwarf fortress but it had a similiar problem that once you knew to put your huts on that game winning loop the rest was easy. The main difference was the playable tutorial in emperors.

I find Dwarf Fortress is very complex with wound systems and extremely simple on economic management, food management, keeping dwarves happy and just about everything else.

[NW_Kohaku]

I just want complexity in social (not societal, mind you) interactions. -_-;

Can you describe the difference?

In one of your threads, (and I'm doing this from memory), you mentioned class warfare. I'd count that as societal. Conversely, social actions would be the individuals interacting with each other, leading to societal interactions.

Impute any mistakes in definition to the fact that I am not a native English speaker.

Actually, I'm more interested in what or don't want than the difference between what you consider "social" or "societal". 

I'd like to see an example that demonstrates the complexity of the sierra games.  If two 10 year olds can play it and very successfully, then I don't really see what's so difficult about it.

Actually, the walkers are what really intrigued me.  Learning how the walkers really worked is what took me the longest time to figure out, and upon recognizing it, forced me to seriously reconsider how to design my roads, since I would often do stupid things like, say, have roads that end or use roadblocks that don't loop around corners because I didn't understand how walkers reacted to them. 

Even if it was a silly and arbatrary mechanic that confused many people, I really liked the way that they worked once I deduced it, since it could be used to create some really elegant solutions to the problems, and made me totally rebuild my cities from the perspective of making loops that were the right length so that I could ensure maximum coverage.