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[Kinoko_Otoko]

So I'm trying to figure out what my starting build should be, now that everything is different for 2010. Traditionally, I will give each dwarf a specific responsibility and ONLY that responsibility; this is to avoid dwarves being needed in two places at once, and to maximize quality output of crafters, as well as facilitate control over strange mood products (and skill gains). There are a few exceptions for nonvital secondary jobs with no quality modifiers (and example would be the 'Murderer' position held by a dwarf with tanning and butchering skills, since butchering has no quality modifier and one is only needed after the other). Free time is generally spent hauling.

This leaves me with a conundrum during the embark process. I always pick a few professions that will be immediately useful, and any other professions I will essentially only use as haulers until such time as I can take advantage of the skill I gave them (for instance weaponsmithing; I generally don't have a metalcrafting industry until I complete several major construction projects and have magma forges). Now I'm faced with the advent of the medical profession in dwarfdom, which leads me to wonder how important skill is in terms of medical treatment.

In the real world, an unskilled person attempting a radical medical procedure like bone setting or surgery (or even diagnostics) is much more likely to make things worse than better. Add to this the fact that, in DF, there is no opportunity for training until the skill is actually needed, and I have to wonder if it would be foolish not to train a starting dwarf with at least surgery, bone setting and diagnostics.

On the other hand, in any case where i train a dwarf in something I don't expect to need right away, there's now the issue of 'rust'. I take very good care of my dwarves, and generally don't see any real combat until years into the game.

So I have a conundrum. The pertinent questions appear to be:

1. How and in what way is experience important to the practice of medicine?

2. How difficult is it to gain skill in a medical profession?

3. How quickly does rust effect the skill level of an idle dwarf?


I simply don't know the answers to these questions (I just picked up the game again for the first time since DF010 was released).

[Golcondio]

In my experience, the most important skill is Diagnostician so your dorfs don't get misdiagnosed... And you're right about rust so I'd advise not to waste any points in healthcare at embark; however, if you're careful not to engage enemies in the first years, chance is you'll get a good diagnostician among the migrants: I made my whole healthcare squad out of professional (or more) immigrants.

[Abaddon]

Honestly I don't bother too much with healthcare, I've found myself getting attacked very little in my last few embarks, and provoking elves into attacking me isn't working very well, so even if my military is wounded I feel confident that a loss of 5 of those dwarves wouldn't disrupt my fortress anyway.

[Khift]

It's nearly impossible for levels to be gained in healthcare skills under normal circumstances. Additionally, it's very common (in my experience, at least) to see migrant dwarves with High Master in two healthcare skills -- I usually pick a small stable of these covering all of the necessary skills, disable all non-healthcare labors on them, give them bedrooms accessible from within the hospital and leave them permanently on-call and don't think about it any more. Of course, my forts also get huge (150 to 200 dwarves), so it doesn't hurt to have six permanent idlers hanging around to act as an ER -- they'd just be haulers, anyways, and I figure if the six of them save even one valuable dwarf they've proven their worth.

[TheyTarget]

rust. I'm pretty sure, if they do two things a year. They wont rust skills away. Having said that. Thats like having two injured dwarfs requiring every type of medical treatment a year. So rust is just gonna happen.

[Kinoko_Otoko]

Aright, thanks everyone. Sounds like the medical system needs work. Actually, any skills which don't get used a lot need to have something in place to eliminate rust as a problem if the player is willing to spend resources on it. For instance, if I decide to have a permanent medical staff, they should be able to practice or something in their off time...

The whole idea of rust actually irritates me quite a bit, since I'm all about building, and anything that deconstructs something I've built is an irritant. Actually, is there any way to turn rust off?

[Hyndis]

Start with 7 miners. Digging it top priority. Migrants who come later can do other things, but you won't do much of anything without first digging a fortress and/or building walls.

[Evergod41]

Aright, thanks everyone. Sounds like the medical system needs work. Actually, any skills which don't get used a lot need to have something in place to eliminate rust as a problem if the player is willing to spend resources on it. For instance, if I decide to have a permanent medical staff, they should be able to practice or something in their off time...

The whole idea of rust actually irritates me quite a bit, since I'm all about building, and anything that deconstructs something I've built is an irritant. Actually, is there any way to turn rust off?

Yes, theres a bit in the wiki, in the cheating section, under modding the dwarven soul, stuff about learning rates, and rust-ability.

[NW_Kohaku]

Aright, thanks everyone. Sounds like the medical system needs work. Actually, any skills which don't get used a lot need to have something in place to eliminate rust as a problem if the player is willing to spend resources on it. For instance, if I decide to have a permanent medical staff, they should be able to practice or something in their off time...

The whole idea of rust actually irritates me quite a bit, since I'm all about building, and anything that deconstructs something I've built is an irritant. Actually, is there any way to turn rust off?

Yes, theres a bit in the wiki, in the cheating section, under modding the dwarven soul, stuff about learning rates, and rust-ability.

Actually, I don't really consider it "cheating", I just think the default rates aren't very good representations.  I tend to cut learning rates down to a third, and multiply the time it takes rust to begin by 10, while halving the actual rust/loss rate.

That way, you have to really, seriously stop working on something for rust to even start (unlike sleep breaks causing rust), but at the same time, hitting legendary in the first place takes longer, as well.

Anyway, you may or may not consider it cheating, but it's entirely possible to train your doctors by simply purposefully injuring dwarves for your doctors to care for, and potentially train your military dwarves at the same time.

Of course, before considering purposefully injuring your own dwarves just for skill point bonuses cheating, keep in mind that some real-life doctors get training by purposefully injuring animals just to give themselves something to practice their treatments on.  (Eat it, PETA!)

[Kinoko_Otoko]

Of course, before considering purposefully injuring your own dwarves just for skill point bonuses cheating, keep in mind that some real-life doctors get training by purposefully injuring animals just to give themselves something to practice their treatments on.  (Eat it, PETA!)

That is a fantastic idea. Toady needs to make medical dwarves able to operate on animals as well as other dorfs. That way we can train them! Maybe we should post this somewhere on the suggestions forum?

[TheyTarget]

That is a fantastic idea. Toady needs to make medical dwarves able to operate on animals as well as other dorfs. That way we can train them! Maybe we should post this somewhere on the suggestions forum?

I think they are suppose to work on animals already, and its just bugged. So whenever he fixes it, will get that jewel of a concept. I can just see it now, the automated cat crippler.

[JAFANZ]

Except that once it's fixed it will probably use/train the Animal Care skill...

[Vastin]

I'm of the impression that the medical skills don't DO much yet, except perhaps speed up treatment?

I had a total quack in my last fortress, pretty much totally unskilled, but he seemed to get the job done OK after several of my dwarves were injured taking down a forgotten beast.

That being said, it's nearly impossible to train a dwarf in medicine, so if skill actually becomes an issue we'll need a better way to increase it.

[NW_Kohaku]

I thought that doctors with low diagnosis skill would misdiagnose the problem, and start doing malpractice, sewing up the wrong body part while ignoring all the gushing blood as the dwarf on the table dies.

[Shagomir]

I thought that doctors with low diagnosis skill would misdiagnose the problem, and start doing malpractice, sewing up the wrong body part while ignoring all the gushing blood as the dwarf on the table dies.

Urist McMessenger: "Dr. Urist McZoidberg, come quickly! Urist McMiner has crushed his legs in a cave-in!"

Dr. Urist McZoidberg: "It's fin-rot, I tell you!"