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[ouroborus]

So it appears that sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal are available. Fun means that mills should be able to make black powder and a forge could be used to make shot and blunderbusses. Hmm... Might even fit within the existing framework.

[existent]

Mods with guns exist already. Making a blunderbuss would be mostly nomenclature.

[NW_Kohaku]

Yes, the ingredients for gunpowder are in the game.  You can even start modding them in, and the Modding Forum has a few. 

Thing is, when you start involving guns and gunpowder in the vanilla game, it starts to really color the perception people have of what sort of game they are playing, and some people are not too fond of dwarves with guns (or higher technology or "steampunk").  (Inversely, there's also plenty of arguments over magic, and making more magical dwarves, and people who prefer the steampunkish dwarves.) The arbitrary technological limit Toady has imposed is about the year 1300, which is pretty much just before the first guns and printing presses start the Rennaisance.

Also, before making suggestions, you should make searches for existing threads of the same sort - believe me, plenty of people have talked about guns and gunpowder before - and it's encouraged to contribute to existing threads rather than re-creating the same suggestion, since the objective is to develop the ideas through discussion, which gets lost when the old threads become ignored and buried in the forums.

[Footkerchief]

Guns, Gunpowder, Explosives & Pyrotechnics

• Guns!
• Ranged weapons and the use of gunpowder
• Boom!
• Firearm Technology
• Things that go boom.
• The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
• Dwarven Flame Cannon.

[ouroborus]

Yes, the ingredients for gunpowder are in the game.  You can even start modding them in, and the Modding Forum has a few. 

Thing is, when you start involving guns and gunpowder in the vanilla game, it starts to really color the perception people have of what sort of game they are playing, and some people are not too fond of dwarves with guns (or higher technology or "steampunk").  (Inversely, there's also plenty of arguments over magic, and making more magical dwarves, and people who prefer the steampunkish dwarves.) The arbitrary technological limit Toady has imposed is about the year 1300, which is pretty much just before the first guns and printing presses start the Rennaisance.

I was thinking more of the Fun involved in setting up and maintaining a gunpowder factory. Both that and the guns themselves were prone to blowing up. But I see your point.

Also, before making suggestions, you should make searches for existing threads of the same sort - believe me, plenty of people have talked about guns and gunpowder before - and it's encouraged to contribute to existing threads rather than re-creating the same suggestion, since the objective is to develop the ideas through discussion, which gets lost when the old threads become ignored and buried in the forums.

I had thought so as well. Plugging in "gunpowder" in the search didn't yield anything. (Looking at it a second time, there's an entry towards the bottom of the page about weapons research which might be construed as having something to do with gunpowder.)

[Capntastic]

Toady's said no to guns [outside of mods] pretty firmly in the past, multiple times.    Paraphrasing, he liked Arnold in Conan more than in Terminator.

[Neonivek]

Toady's said no to guns [outside of mods] pretty firmly in the past, multiple times.    Paraphrasing, he liked Arnold in Conan more than in Terminator.

Yep, though he said he more then was leaving enough room to allow it to be modded in.

[Footkerchief]

Here are some quotes I'd dug up for a previous gunpowder thread:

Given that anything I add which is both highly controversial and unnecessary will be optional, people can afford to be calm about future additions.

A lot of it comes down to where I devote my energy.  Technological innovations sort of fall into a category with projects like tileset support.  These options would make some people happy and expand the audience, while taking up some of my time that other people want put somewhere else.  As they get further and further away from what we've already got, they are less likely to have time found for them.

For those interested in a specific development timeline for gunpowder, I'll be faced with the question when I make the alchemist's workshop more interesting (assuming that workshop continues to exist).  Handling the workshop itself is a middle-priority matter, since the game elements involved aren't crucial but the the building is languishing in a limbo surrounded by mysterious useless raw entries like golden salve and gnomeblight.  I may or may not add optional gunpowder around that time.  I don't know.

Regarding gunpowder and some basic associated technologies, I can see myself playing either way, really, since I'm not that picky.  If I had to choose between having gunpowder on or off in a release distribution init file, it would be off, because Arnold got shot in Commando not Conan, and the Argonauts didn't get shot by handguns or cannons, and Medusa had a bow not a gun, and stuff.  We grew up with that crap, and our core DF, our myth/fantasy game, mainly hovers around that sort of fluffy nostalgia, but it doesn't need to impact you more than a one line file change.

Yeah, I'm aware of this.  I've been thinking for a while of using their chemistry as the dwarven model, prior to gunpowder arriving in the mid 13th century.  Plaster isn't the first time we've bumped into them.  In any case, as plaster casts predate that by 300 years and had the direct mineral link I mentioned, I think it's all good.  Dwarves should probably distinguish themselves in fields like this, if anything.  It's their element, at least in part.  Some of it'll depend on flavor (gunpowder is a decision like this more or less).  I'll have to decide on a case by case basis, but I think most of it will go in.  Our dwarves have more idle time than fighting crazy viking-style scottish dwarves.

edit:  though they drink twice as much.

[sweitx]

Guns, Gunpowder, Explosives & Pyrotechnics

• Guns!
• Ranged weapons and the use of gunpowder
• Boom!
• Firearm Technology
• Things that go boom.
• The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
• Dwarven Flame Cannon.

You remind me of one of my classmate in debate class.
Whenever he goes to a debate tournament, he just have massive cases of index card.
Every single argument his opponent made, somehow, he already has a card with his exact argument that can counter it.
In this case...
ouroborus: "How about adding Blunderbuss?"
Footerkerchief: *Post previous topics* "Any questions?"

[NW_Kohaku]

You remind me of one of my classmate in debate class.
Whenever he goes to a debate tournament, he just have massive cases of index card.
Every single argument his opponent made, somehow, he already has a card with his exact argument that can counter it.
In this case...
ouroborus: "How about adding Blunderbuss?"
Footerkerchief: *Post previous topics* "Any questions?"

Look at what thread that quote was from: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31040.msg431998#msg431998

"[Index] - Frequently Posted Suggestions"

So yeah, that's pretty much exactly what it is.

[anotherthing]

I was thinking more of the Fun involved in setting up and maintaining a gunpowder factory.

Or the folly of sending in a squad of blunderbuss dwarves with powder kegs on their backs against a dragon.

[NW_Kohaku]

Actually, just looking at how saltpeter that you can actually mine tends to occur in pockets of only a half-dozen units of the stuff at a time, and only appears in sedimentary layers, which tend to only take up the top layer, you probably wouldn't get much use out of the stuff, anyway...

Of course, in my research for the Farming Improvement mod, I read up on the classic recepie for potassium nitrate (saltpeter), which involves dirt, manure, urine, potash, and mortar, left covered to allow soil bacteria to convert the urine into ammonia and then mix the ammonia and manure into calcium nitrate, and then mixed with potash to make potassium nitrate.  You get a much more reliable supply from that...

Brimstone is also not particularly common... apparently, the actual medieval types would farm sulfur from volcanic hotsprings, which aren't exaclty present in DF.  You'd probably have to use some sort of kludge reaction with obsidian so you could "farm volcanic springs" through obsidian farming.  The actual process is described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur#Sicilian_process