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[GaelicVigil]

Would living in Middle Earth be more exciting to someone who grew up and never leaves Hobbiton than to someone who reads the books (even if they live in that world)?

Is daily life more exciting to a random nine-to-fiver, than reading a spy thriller set in the real world?

I guess you've answered my question as indicated by the rhetorical questions.  Well so be it then...you can keep your book, and I'll keep my Holodeck. 

[Sowelu]

Excellent!  I think we have reached a satisfying conclusion of 'agree-to-disagree'.  I'm happy with this.

[GaelicVigil]

Besides the above, isn't there also an inherent contradiction there? You speak of people being "free" of intellectual rule, and then go on to make an example about "walking into" someone's else vision. (Eh. I don't usually try to go this way but I'll point it out anyway)

Middle Earth was simply an example of a virtual fantasy world.   However, I think we can agree that you'd be hard pressed to argue that being able to do whatever you wanted to do, in person, inside of Tolkien's universe, is just a tad bit more free than simply reading about, right?

[3]

However, I think we can agree that you'd be hard pressed to argue that being able to do whatever you wanted to do, in person, inside of Tolkien's universe, is just a tad bit more free than simply reading about, right?

Besides me honestly not giving a damn about "freedom" if it has no relevance to narrative drama, then yes, we can agree.

Your concept would only work in a scenario wherein everyone piled in and actually worked for it (see: some MUDs, most of which don't work properly because people aren't that cooperative anyway), or in the case that it is actually possible to create coherent drama in a procedural fashion (which, as of currently, I see no indication thereof). Otherwise it's a pipe dream.

Besides, you haven't answered one of my questions:

What makes you a better author?

Are you really expecting that the uncanny valley can be crossed that easily? How far are you willing to suspend your disbelief?

Also, about this "forced art" thing: The world is ours and is what we make it. I refute your concept that art which is "man-made" is somehow irrelevant to life and existence (or otherwise secondary to "natural" art).

[GaelicVigil]

However, I think we can agree that you'd be hard pressed to argue that being able to do whatever you wanted to do, in person, inside of Tolkien's universe, is just a tad bit more free than simply reading about, right?

Besides me honestly not giving a damn about "freedom" if it has no relevance to narrative drama, then yes, we can agree.

Your concept would only work in a scenario wherein everyone piled in and actually worked for it (see: some MUDs, most of which don't work properly because people aren't that cooperative anyway), or in the case that it is actually possible to create coherent drama in a procdural fashion (which, as of currently, I see no indication thereof). Otherwise it's a pipe dream.

Like I said, it already exists on planet Earth, so it is possible, and it happened all on it's own to boot.

I've also seen this in many video games.  Have you not read some of the incredible stories that people have experienced in Dwarf Fortress?  What is that, but an indication that narrative can exist in a virtual world without any official real story writers?

Besides, you haven't answered one of my questions:

What makes you a better author?

I am always a better author when I have lived the experience myself.  I remember when I was about 6 years old, visiting an old-west ghost town with my parents and a few cousins.  My cousins were quite a bit older and decided to play a joke on me by making "ghostly" noises around the old houses.  For quite a while, I really believed the place was haunted until they filled me in on their prank.  This experience is memorable to me to this day, it turned out to be a great little story that I will never forget.

Another great story is when my dog died when I was about 15.  I'll never forget the pain I felt after that happened, the emotion was greater than the emotion I had felt in any novel or movie in my life.

Was the content of the story more incredible than reading about Gandalf fighting the Balrog?  No, of course not.  But because it happened to me, in a real living situation, and it was spontaneous, the story was far more impactful to me.  My point is that life is far more emotional than a book or a movie will ever be, and that makes each us far more effective authors.

This can be simulated in a virtual environment as well, when things happen that are unique to you and nobody else.  There are varying degrees of it (as Dwarf Fortress has shown), but I think the closer we get to simulating the life experience, the more important the stories will become to each of us.

[dragnar]

I must disagree. If I thought real life was a better story than games or books, then I wouldn't play them. I play games to hear the stories of others, not to experience my own. Even if there were VR worlds I could play in I suspect I wouldn't like them much. Reality isn't very epic for the average person, why would a simulated world be any different?

[3]

I've also seen this in many video games.  Have you not read some of the incredible stories that people have experienced in Dwarf Fortress?  What is that, but an indication that narrative can exist in a virtual world without any official real story writers?

It is an indication that procedural narrative can exist with people continually filling in gaps. It's no different to what was being said earlier:

With great freedom comes a great lack of characterization, and a great lack of getting into your character's head.  You might invent some great love story, and have some terrible event happen and realize that your character ought to go through some horrible trauma and be screaming inside...but you have to write all that yourself, because your character just stands there looking dumb, and that ruins the immersion an awful lot.

The fact that DF is mostly nongraphical helps it with this.

My point is that life is far more emotional than a book or a movie will ever be, and that makes each us far more effective authors.

Then why attempt a simulation?

This can be simulated in a virtual environment as well, when things happen that are unique to you and nobody else.  There are varying degrees of it, but I think the closer we get to simulating the life experience, the more important the stories will become to each of us.

Surely.

[GaelicVigil]

I must disagree. If I thought real life was a better story than games or books, then I wouldn't play them. I play games to hear the stories of others, not to experience my own. Even if there were VR worlds I could play in I suspect I wouldn't like them much. Reality isn't very epic for the average person, why would a simulated world be any different?

Obviously, I'm not talking about simulating reality.  I hope people aren't mistaking me here.  I'm talking about simulating life as a hero of some sort, a life of epic adventure and excitement in all facets of the imagination, but without boundaries.  In it's most pure form, I'm thinking of the Holodeck on Star Trek.

And who says that a better author has to equal a better story?  A good author invokes negative feelings just as well as he invokes positive ones.

[Sowelu]

Your concept would only work in a scenario wherein everyone piled in and actually worked for it (see: some MUDs, most of which don't work properly because people aren't that cooperative anyway)

Ooh!  Now that's an excellent point.  I've played plenty of MUDs and MUSHes, some roleplaying, some not.  When you compare the sheer enjoyment I've gotten from the stories in these places, versus books/etc in the setting they came from...honestly the books win, by a long margin.  Sure, you can get new stories from the games and it's cool to be personally involved as an author, but that's similar to writing fanfiction.  Fanfiction with socialization.  So a holodeck would seem like fanfiction without socialization.

Writing good stories is freakin' hard.  That's one reason why authors--book authors, movie authors, game-script authors--actually get some respect in this world, often more respect than programmers.  They arguably have a harder job.  Of course it takes some imagination on the player's part (or reader's, etc) to get the full effect.  And there are plenty who would argue that...okay, for example, that a lack of voice acting is ideal, because then you can imagine the voices the way you wanted them to sound.  And that simple graphics are better because of the power of imagination.  Okay, I can agree that that's good sometimes!  But it's possible to take that too far.  Let's take out the actual fighting sequences, for example, because you could imagine them being better.  Let's take out the text descriptions of the town because you'd rather imagine them yourself.  After a short trip down a moderately slippery slope, you end up with no game.  At least you probably have a pretty cool story...so, write it down, and sell it so I can pick it up in a bookstore.

Let's extrapolate backwards.  Go play some of the classic roleplaying challenges in Diablo 1, and imagine that there's a plot going on around you.  Or, heck, go play FF1 and plot and scheme about some hidden subtext.  There is an absolutely LEGENDARY LP for Animal Crossing, incredibly dark, that is a great example of applying imagination to a game...and it didn't even need (much) procedurally generated or emergent behavior.  If you can do so much with a game that already has a story...well, why would you need to take that stuff out?


As for experiencing things in a game having more impact than reading about them, or having them result from your actions impacting you harder than having them pre-scripted...I flat-out disagree.  I have VERY strong memories from even some pretty minor parts of very well-written RPGs.  (Chrono Trigger, saving Lucca's mom's legs, then going back and visiting her in the present)  Good writing can be absolutely amazing, even in comparison to real life, even in comparison to things you've experienced.  There's a reason why storytelling has been such a huge part of human culture since the dawn of time.  Hell, you could say that it's DEFINED human culture.  It is a key part of human culture, all human culture, that stories which we did not experience are supposed to influence us very strongly.

[3]

And who says that a better author has to equal a better story?  A good author invokes negative feelings just as well as he invokes positive ones.

I think you're taking "better" rather literally here.

[GaelicVigil]

The other problem you guys are confusing here with what I've said, is that I'm not referring to "physical stories".  I'm not referring to stories written with "text" or images.  I'm talking about the story that gets communicated to the heart.  So when I talk about Dwarf Fortress, I refer to the story you experience in your mind and soul while you are playing.  This has nothing to do with what people are writing or displaying after the fact.

I think we're all on the same page here, either I'm just not communicating it well enough, or we just like to argue.

[Sowelu]

Nah, I just don't see DF as communicating deep stories to my heart.  They don't impact me hardly at all, compared to others.  I get the satisfaction of a job well done, or suffer the agony of failure, but they do not differ in any way from playing SimCity for me.

On the other hand, LPs do communicate those meaningful stories to my heart.  I believe that this is because they actually have writers.

[GaelicVigil]

Yeah, I disagree, I definitely feel like these kind of stories leave a far more emotional impact upon me than a linear movie or line from a book.

And DF has plenty of writing.

This is awesome though, at least everybody has done some great brainstorming about the topic.  I can always count on the B12 forums to have the deepest discussions anywhere.  You guys are great. 

[Sowelu]

I agree.  Heated discussion, yes, but with no hard feelings.  It is good here!  :D

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

This makes me think.  How many of you generate ideas in a vacuum?  I know I sure don't.  Basically all of my ideas can be clearly traced back to something else that inspired them.  So what's a good writer?  Someone that spontaneously comes up with ideas on the spot or someone who's just really good at adapting other ideas in interesting ways?