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Author Topic: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze  (Read 12596 times)

GaelicVigil

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RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« on: August 17, 2010, 01:03:08 pm »

I recently read a good article titled, "How RPGs Lost Their Way".  The argument revolved around console RPGs and many of the negative turns they have taken over the years, but it really got me thinking that the issue goes a lot deeper and broader than even this.  The situation has gotten very bad, the problems perpetrate not only game-play, but the entire gaming experience that was a common in the days of yore. 

I'd like to illustrate this issue using the example of a variation of the Operant Condition Chamber where a rat is not only rewarded for repetition, but it is trapped in a never-ending maze as well.  The problem for the rat is 3-fold: 1. They are physically trapped within a 3 dimensional space with which they have little to no realization of, 2. they are addicted to a reward that revolves around instant gratification and pleasure rather than fundamental enjoyment. 3. they are forced into a cycle of input of repetitive, boring actions.

There was a time when fantasy was an experience of the occult, something that really existed outside the realm of mortal perception and experience.  When we pulled out the dice, pencils and manuals, we became a part of another world, we let our imaginations fill in the gaps.  Stepping into the shoes of another character was an experience of free-form adventure, if making it up as you went along and solving dangerous puzzles and quests.

To begin with, I have been really bothered lately by the recent artistic style that has been a trend for gaming within the last decade or so.  Earlier games were marketed with a vivid display of gritty, dark imagry:

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The pen and paper medium eventually made it's way into video games, starting with our computers and then entering the console.

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Even the manuals themselves were works of art.  Back then, when you bought a video game of this sort, you were not simply buying something you "played", you purchased an experience that took place both on and off the screen.

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The graphical art of these games were varied and unique, each having their own flair.  Most were dark and mysterious, inviting the player to seek out clues and the knowledge to be successful.  Nothing came easy in these games, they required persistence and skill from a player to win.  The graphical engines eventually improved, but the worlds were large and open, the limitations were few and the freedom was great.

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But then, about this time, something started to happen.  It started gradually at first, it was almost unnoticable, but more and more control was taken away from the player.  Invisible walls started to spring up, doors were closed, NPCs stopped talking, the options were diminishing.  Then, the art started to change: manuals got smaller, boxes shrunk, the characters became younger, parties became smaller, and cartoon caricatures started to creep in.

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At first glance, things certainly looked "prettier", but delving deeper one could easily find that the mystery, the challenge and the dark atmosphere was gone.  The occult had become a thing of the past.  Even some more recent games have retained some of the old elements, which give many reason to continue to be interested, but it is clear that the evolutionary path of RPGs has been winding down a dreary road in the last few years.  Now the publishers even miss the point, they are no longer experiences, they are simply pushed as marketing gimmicks as digital 1s and 0s bought cheaply off digitial distribution sites.  The games are played for an hour and then deleted from our hard drives while we await the next big "sale".

I remember vividly when I was a kid, playing Dragon Quest 4 as "Taloon" the shopkeeper.  I dreamed about a game that would turn the NPC customers into real players that would run in a virtual world, that would be found on something new that others called the "World Wide Web".  I dreamed of playing as a lowly guard, hired by the king to lead an army of players through the mountains to descend upon the enemy city.  I was giddy with anticipation about the future, when games like this would become a reality, when our role-playing games would finally breach the ultimate wall of interactivity.  Ultima Online came close, but the idea was quickly abandoned.  Now twenty years later, today in 2010, instead of the dream I had as a child, we get this instead:

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Again:
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...and again:
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I read the blogs.  We've been pushed this bland garbage for so long that people actually, truly, honestly believe that this is the only model that works anymore.  They say, "I don't like it, but, well that's the only way that companies can make money - by leading the player along with the carrot in front of the nose".  The very metaphor that they use to describe this process is ironic.

Ask yourselves, as gamers, if you have not become the proverbial rat in Skinners lever experiment.  I'm not just talking about MMOs, I'm referring to the gaming industry in general, particularly with RPGs.  The treat we are given tastes better and better each year, much like a narcotic, but the maze becomes tighter and ever more restrictive.  The treat is simply an illusion of reality, of grandeur and potential.  We are being sold goods that only satisfy us in the moment, and many of use have become brainwashed to believe that gaming is getting better and better.  For the most part, for the last 10 years we have been running in circles, bumping into the same walls where, very rarely, is there drastic innovation outside of independent developers.  On a global scale, we still have not even come close to the virtual world RPG of our dreams.

So the cycle continues, the lever looks a bit different, the reward a little tastier, but there is no way out.  Like Casino operators, the money-makers know exactly how to keep dragging us along.  They tweak the formula each year, making the illusion less and less apparent to make things more and more cost effective.  Maximize the profits and diminishing the returns, we are condemned to an endless experiment.  They hope and bank on us not noticing, and for the most part, like the caged rat, they are succeeding.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 01:43:29 pm by GaelicVigil »
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Whiskey mcgin

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 01:29:11 pm »

Oh.. Dear gods.. ITS TRUE!
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inteuniso

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 01:31:33 pm »

You mean... we could be playing good games?

The problem is that games and gamers are falling into a sort of vicious cycle. The younger the kids game developers cater to, the less complex games they make. Thus, the more complex games are not understood, and even less complex games are made. This isn't the only problem, of course. "Hardcore" gamers are those playing MW2 and Halo 3, and the huge casual market, for people who might play games for 15 minutes, are given games like Farmville and Bejeweled. The more money given to those games, more are made like them. And thus, true hardcore gaming dies, giving way to FPSes and RPGs with no depth whatsoever. It's truly sad.
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Mindmaker

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 01:36:29 pm »

I've been thinking the same for a long time.

But what can one do?
When Oblivion came out and I expressed my dissatisfaction with it, other people told me that it was a better game than Morrowind ever was.
It saddens me.
Why can't the FPS and action enthusiasts stick to their genere and leave ours alone.

Yeah I know, it's not their fault, since it are the developers which make such decisions.

Too bad the primal law for todays game industry is "survival of the strongest", where the strong devour the weak.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 01:38:11 pm by Mindmaker »
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Grakelin

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 01:38:23 pm »

You're wasting space with all the screenshots which don't prove any points at all (Except, maybe, the Oblivion shot). Why post up a screenshot of Torchlight? It's essentially a Diablo clone, Diablo having been made in 97, whereas Baldur's Gate was released in 98. Why is it, then, that it is of inferior quality to the days of old? Are we really seeing a steady decline of RPGs, or is it just that the innocent wonder of our youth has faded away?

Why the KotOR screenshot? Do you, for some reason, feel that the inventory screen is contrived when compared to that of Ultima IV? What about the Noble Character's Hall in Dragon Age made you think "Eww, decline"? In what ways does your image of WoW, from 2010, differ from my image of Everquest, from 2000?

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You're not being led along like a rat in a maze by executives. You're being led on by your own unrealistic expectation and false memories of how great games used to be.
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Frumple

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 01:40:32 pm »

*scratches head vaguely* To th'OP, what's your point? I mean, you've said all this, but there's not really a conclusion or 'this is what we do now' or whatever. You've put a fair amount of effort into saying not much at all, other than you're not very fond of th'way mainstream non-PnP RPG game design's been going the last few years. And that's been said by a lot of folks.

Using a DQ game as something even remotely approaching a counter-example is almost farcical, though. DQIV's a damn good game, but it's also, yanno', a dragon quest game. They're kinda' the archetypal jRPG through and through -- innovation and immersion isn't exactly their cuppa' tea.

Really, though, as a whole? RPGs in general have massively improved in pretty much every aspect. You've got the whole rose-tinted goggles of nostalgia going on here -- and I understand, I put them on too. A lot of the old games were -- and are -- good (and yes, I've played many, many of them), but when you objectively step back and sit them side by side with something even remotely recent... they don't stand up. I mean... Oblivion vs DQIV? Is there really a match there? Really? I'm not even particularly fond of Oblivion, preferring Morrowind massively, but I can't say in good conscience that DQIV is a better game. It'd be outright (perhaps self) deception.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 01:42:51 pm by Frumple »
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Hugehead

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 01:43:18 pm »

That was a very good rant. I share your view on RPGs, what makes them "Role Playing" games anymore than a FPS? In both you are playing a person you can chose to pretend to be, but does having a stat system make it "Role Playing" any more? You're still are walking down the same paths that everyone else who played the game has, sure you may be a different class, or it may have taken you longer to get there, but it's still the same path. I hope that some day we get a game with a real living breathing world, you might run into a peasant on the street being chased by a city guard, you don't have a circle menu come up with options of what to say, you don't have to help him, you don't even have to look his way, are you the one roleplaying if he runs up to you and you have 3 options of what to say, do you even care what happens to him?
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Toady Two

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 01:44:21 pm »

I think most if not all pleasure in video gaming comes from the fake sense of accomplishment. Escape from reality is also a lure to some people but the principle is the same. You can become immersed in a fictional world also while watching a good movie or reading a book. It is true that only gaming lets you interact with that world but i don't think it as the main reason people enjoy playing. Its always been about the "rewards", whether it's a high score everyone can seen or the end credits or the sense of progress and getting better that RPGs have.

It is true that in recent years game companies have been concentrating on other aspects of the medium, such as graphics, plot lines and intuitive gameplay. The things some people call "background", "atmosphere" or a "a compelling game world" are not high on even their artists priority lists likely because they don't give much return in sales. A thick instruction book with lots of fluff isn't going to convince anyone whether to buy a game.

I don't think this discussion is just more rambling about casual vs. specialist :P
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Mindmaker

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 01:50:05 pm »

You're not being led along like a rat in a maze by executives. You're being led on by your own unrealistic expectation and false memories of how great games used to be.

I haven't played BG2 until 2-3 years ago, along with some other older RPGs.
So in my case it has nothing to do with some blurry childhood memories.

I don't believe all this nostalgia crap, that people try to talk into me.
I can remember most of the games I played years back, even the ones I used to play as a kid, like if it was yesterday, because they were GOOD.
Same goes with the shitty ones.

The quality of the game isn't changed by nostalgia, for me its only the graphics.
Every time I come back to a game I haven't played in ages I always suprised how horrible they look, compared to my memories.
But they still are equally fun, as long as they are from a more in-depth-genere.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 01:55:29 pm by Mindmaker »
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cerapa

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 01:51:04 pm »

This is a rather unimpressive rant. If you gonna rant about something, do it about things others havent ranted about.
This rant has been done about everything, ever. Music, books, movies, everything.

There is a bit of irony considering that its on the forum of a RPG where you should be able to build a house in the woods soon.
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Nainemid

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2010, 02:19:27 pm »

I have two questions.

First, why is there a screenshot of Elemental: War of Magic?

Second, if you're complaining about the artwork of RPGs getting more cartoony, why do you use Dragon Warrior as an example of a good RPG, even though it has had Akira Toriyama as its artist since day one?
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Deon

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 02:34:46 pm »

You're not being led along like a rat in a maze by executives. You're being led on by your own unrealistic expectation and false memories of how great games used to be.

I haven't played BG2 until 2-3 years ago, along with some other older RPGs.
So in my case it has nothing to do with some blurry childhood memories.

I don't believe all this nostalgia crap, that people try to talk into me.
I can remember most of the games I played years back, even the ones I used to play as a kid, like if it was yesterday, because they were GOOD.
Same goes with the shitty ones.

The quality of the game isn't changed by nostalgia, for me its only the graphics.
Every time I come back to a game I haven't played in ages I always suprised how horrible they look, compared to my memories.
But they still are equally fun, as long as they are from a more in-depth-genere.




The problem here for me is that you compare it to BG (and especially in case of BG2). They were just brilliant, there were much worse but still good games even back then :).

I tend to agree that games became less thought-through in general. And I still think that Ultima Online was the best MMO game ever and nothing can be done in that way (because I loved systems like full crafting, open pvp, full drop; and also I liked the world after playing almost all previous ultimas). I can't really play all modern MMO games more than 1 week.

Quote
First, why is there a screenshot of Elemental: War of Magic?
I feel it has its place somewhere there. By the previews there was something "wrong" with elemental for me. Either some simplification elements, some limits or something else. But I still hope I will enjoy it.
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HonkyPunch

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2010, 03:56:51 pm »

I was going to read your post but then I realized I still need to get my blood elf rogue to lvl 60.
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Sowelu

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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 05:06:06 pm »

I'm confused.  Did you include Dragon Warrior in the list of classic GOOD RPGs?  Because that was the first part of the console-RPG decline to hit Western shores (FF1 was okay).  Linear, simple-ish (at least the first game was), cartoony, your only real decisions were "when do I head back to town to heal so I don't die and lose half my gold" and "Do I start out with leather armor and a sharp stick, or no armor and a short sword"...Okay, the manual was cool, but that wasn't the original manual; the Japanese NES manuals were often much much simpler and we got ones with half the hint book crammed in.  Also, seriously, console RPGs...especially with dialogue?  "Sigh...Times are tough.  Sigh...Times are tough.  Sigh...Times are tough."  "But thou must!  But thou must!  But thou must!"

And boy there were some bad RPGs back in the bad old days, too.  Good ones, yes!  But, heh, Heroes of the Lance.  And, well, Wizardry was a classic that hearkened back to the tabletop days, but it was total roll-playing + map-making.  Which is cool!  But, well, don't confuse it with role-playing.  The only role-playing you will EVER see without another human being comes in the form of choose-your-own-adventure stories...which, coincidentally, you *DO* get in Mass Effect etc.  (Which I've never played but whatever)  Oh yeah, and I remember when Return to Zork's conversation-by-mood-buttons was considered kind of revolutionary as a combination between power and ease-of-use, though that was a puzzle/adventure game and not really an RPG...

Computer and console RPGs are always a mix of these factors:  Reading an unfolding story, choosing which parts of the story to explore, min-maxing your characters, grinding through combat, and solving puzzles.  Not all of them let you choose your path, exploration is considered a part of the 'puzzle', and in some of them the combat is less of a grind than others...but when you're fighting, you are not actively advancing the story, and vice versa (the cutscenes come after the fight, or during a pause in the fight, etc).

So, early games had better puzzles.  Okay...cool.  That just means that early RPGs were RPG/puzzle games, and modern ones are RPG/action games.  Where do you even draw the line between RPGs and puzzle games anyway?  And can you consider, say, Disgaea to be an RPG?  It's such a totally different genre from Ultima that there's literally no comparison--it's like comparing either one of them to Mario Bros.  If Monkey Island had hit points and the ability to die from insult-sword-fighting, would it be an RPG?  Is Indigo Prophecy an RPG?

Actually, Indigo Prophecy is a REALLY tough call!  There is NO stat-based combat, and you follow a linear story...but you can manipulate the hell out of events within that linear story, and if you screw up too much, you do fail/die/whatever.  And you can get into your role a **LOT** better than even Baldur's Gate.  I mean in BG you have to worry about roleplaying vs. winning, and where you draw the line.  In Indigo Prophecy, you decide if you're going to clean up the murder scene and try to take it calm, or if you're just going to dash out the back door all covered in blood--and it's a VALID, non-losing progression of the story either way.  If anything...I would say that Indigo Propery is absolutely the most pure RPG ever made for the computer...and it doesn't have a single stat block to its name.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 05:09:33 pm by Sowelu »
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Re: RP Gamers: Rats trapped in a maze
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2010, 05:11:18 pm »

The problem with MMOs is mainly the multiplayer aspect. You have to compete with others, so the game makes the grind harder. And the extra fun from multiplayer teamwork means that they can scrap things like story and artwork. They're basically back in the ugly, infancy days.

You do have some nice RP intensive games going around these days like Armageddon MUD which exceeds the gameplay of many of the classics, but they still have their cost.

And I'm not sure if you've played Wizardry, but that game was hardly a work of art. It took a beautiful tabletop game and just filtered out the interaction and focused on the combat.
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