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[Africa]

Got to say, I'm not really aware of any lack of civility around here.

[gtmattz]

Just try it! Its not like you die IRL if Urist McMiner falls into magma.

I am sigging this.

[therahedwig]

I think in the end the only thing that can be done about this:

If you think someone is rude, instead of making a very special announcement about it, just say it t that persons face. Reply to them or PM them.
Because the worst that can happen is that you'll be told to fuck off. In which case the rest of the forumgoers will stand behind you.

You're aware that e.g. the Suggestions forum specifically says NOT to take such things on yourself? As well as the Forum Guidelines?

They ask you to be respectful, actually.

I can tell someone that he's being rude, but I can tell him that while being respectful. This can be by realising he may not have intended it so, or by warning him that such statements are crossing the line for me. To be able to do so is very important for civil conversation, because the other party can't always know what sets you off.

However, if Newbie MCNewbie has posted something in the suggestions forum that should go into the adventure mode forum, you shouldn't just reply to point that out, because this way we would have 20 people telling him it's the wrong forum and no actual replies on the thing the Newbie wrote.
If a spambot comes up and posts threads about viagra and hot chicks in any of the forums, you shouldn't reply to that, because that way spambots know that it's worth posting stuff there and will post more often.
If someone is truly terribly offensive, like misogynistic or racist, and people who have called him out on that have been ignored or retorded at in rude manner, you shouldn't post there, because it's just not worth your time and you'll feel shit afterwards.

Those are the moments you should call the mods.
For a better sense of how it works: just do what the rules ask you to: Can you be respectful? Or would it be more respectful/smart to call one of the mods?(even if you have no respect for the poster in question)

[Rex_Nex]

I dont really see what everyone means when they talk of DF's learning curve. Yes, its steep, but anyone with proper climbing gear can ascend the mountain that is Dwarf Fortress. It looks complex and unreadable at first glance, but with 20 mins, a tileset, and a guide, I got a working fort my first try, and that fort never failed, it was only erased by the jump to the next 40d version. I know it looks difficult, but if you actually spend a bit of time trying to understand it, you will do just that.

[Organum]

NW! You are very hostile here, and it feels to me like you recognize that. I don't know if you meant to link to that one post, but it's less than a paragraph and seems to be said in a joking manner. There's no need to get so upset over such a slight. Also, since I am speaking directly to you and I don't tend to do this very often, you type really long paragraphs, but they're usually informative and so I don't TL;DR at them as much as I might otherwise. Thanks for inadvertently teaching stuff.

OP! I haven't seen this newb-unfriendly attitude anywhere, but if it does exist I agree that it should stop doing that. Existing, I mean.

[Rotten]

Rotten, I have to ask... what's a "typical strategy game"?

If you mean RTS, then we're talking about something from an entirely different genre than the sorts of games that I associate with DF, which are games like the Sierra Citybuilder series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Building_Series), which blow DF straight out of the water in terms of complexity. 
-snip-

Well one of the first games that came to mind while writing that post is Clonk, where you build a settlement and mine for gold. While not in *exactly* the same genre as DF, I wouldn't say your example is either- from what I can tell from the wiki article at least, it seems to be much less micro-managy than DF. If a hyena comes, you build a police department. Your citizens are sad, build a juggling stand. Etc. etc. You don't individually tell the jugglers to go over and comfort a certain citizen, so it's easier, but at the same time you can't tell the jugglers to carry hidden daggers in their jugging balls to stab that citizen in a back alley as revenge for him leaving the gate open and letting a hyena kill your favorite Egyptian, either, which if DF's complexity was transferred to that game you would be able to do.

A metaphor I came up with earlier seems to explain what I'm trying to say the best:
Some games, like Clonk, are like BASIC. They give you a lot of help, and it's hard to fuck up, but you can't make much either.
Some games are like Java. You can do a lot more, but you're still limited somewhat so you can't make horrible mistakes.
DF is like C++. You can do anything you want, but you can also stick a pointer in system memory and corrupt your OS if you aren't careful.

[LucasUP]

Calm down people! I think we can all agree that people who have trouble playing Dwarf Fortress are simply sub-human spambots who will inevitably bring us all to our doom. Never help them. Keeping Dwarf Fortress inaccessible will kill off all but us superior mighty ones. ONLY TRUE DORFS ALLOWED.

Making Dwarf Fortress any easier to play, to learn, or to access will cause tyrannical stupidy and chaos to erupt from the forums, as bottom feeding idiots stumble their way across the download button and repeatedly smash their faces into their keyboards as they try to generate a world.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Perhaps a tad of exaggeration and sarcasm here?)

[Normandy]

Eh? Clonk a strategy game? Clonk is most definitely no more a strategy game than Cortex Command. Sure, you might slap strategy game on the label, but if you play it like a strategy game, you're doing it wrong. Not to mention that I have no clue what you are talking about; any game with deformable terrain is already four steps ahead of "BASIC".

Using programming languages (wrongly, I may add) as a metaphor for different levels of gaming? And not understanding the connotations of what he is suggesting by using those languages? I don't think your arguments are clear. Complexity is not the same thing as freedom. DF isn't too complex; but it is free; and this can be confused for complexity the first time around.

Sierra Citybuilder games may not be as free and flexible as DF, but to call them not complex is rather silly.

Also, I'm not sure where anyone is getting the idea that we're against making DF easier to learn. Some of us may be against making it easier to play, but playing != learning. Being for more complex features does not mean being against tutorials and wikis, contrary to popular opinion.

[timtek]

I've been on these boards for about a month now. Which I think puts me in a good spot to say that these are some of the most civil user boards I've ever seen. Sure things can get a little hot from time to time but this is nothing compared to other gaming boards. You can never fully escape trolls and flamers(the mean kind not the sparkly kind) but you can ignore them. And honestly if you're playing dwarf fortress you know how the internet works. This isn't exactly a mainstream game and no one finds it on accident.

[MaDeR Levap]

Yeah, I get funnies too. I cannot see where someone blame Toady for their own problem. Kohaku, can you kindly link to one particular post that shows it?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61013.msg1394269#msg1394269

Inside is:

Why does it say "*****" instead of "water"?  Both are five characters.

Nowhere in this quote I see any offense to Toady. You are sure you picked right post?

[Grimlocke]

At the OP: The most uncivil thing I regularly see on this forums is our tendancy to sound a bit arrogant and know-it-all, even when its about subjective things like how complex DF should be. Especialy these discussions that pop up in a new topic every few weeks. That, and out tendancy to drag these dicussions into topics that have very little to do with them.

This topic contains some striking examples of the above. Took us 4 replies to get stuck on the complexity discussion.

Being serious about it isnt a bad thing, and in fact makes some pretty interesting discussions here. But some more humility and moderation couldnt hurt. Newer players that dont know much about the game yet might spark one of these discussions and get freaked out by the reponses, which seems to be the situation the OP discribes.

Beside that I think this community is quite oogd with its civility, a rarity for a gaming related forum. Newer players are generously welcomed and helped and at least we all try to give our posts some good thought. There is very little childish trolling, and outright rudity is quite uncommon.

[Omegastick]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this in the three pages I didn't read of the topic, but here's my two cents.

The community would be what it is now if the game were easy to pick up. All of us here are relatively clever, hard working, willing to press on through incredibly hard situations and open minded. This is because to play DF you need to be all of these things. You need to be open minded just to play the game in the first place, you need to be able to press on through your first siege and countless lost forts, you need to be hard working to get anywhere in the game and need to be clever to understand it. If it wasn't for these natural obstacles out community would be the MW forums or the Halo forums, a gibbering mess of twelve year olds screaming in text speak.

[Eugenitor]

No, your mom is a gibbering mess of twelve-year-olds screaming in text speak!

[Hamster Man]

That's actually sig-worthy, too.

[Krash]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this in the three pages I didn't read of the topic, but here's my two cents.

The community would be what it is now if the game were easy to pick up. All of us here are relatively clever, hard working, willing to press on through incredibly hard situations and open minded. This is because to play DF you need to be all of these things. You need to be open minded just to play the game in the first place, you need to be able to press on through your first siege and countless lost forts, you need to be hard working to get anywhere in the game and need to be clever to understand it. If it wasn't for these natural obstacles out community would be the MW forums or the Halo forums, a gibbering mess of twelve year olds screaming in text speak.

You forgot modest