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[TomiTapio]

The problem I see is that Dwarf Fortress is unique in that you don't directly control any character, and unlike many other games with a similar concept (RTS's), the dwarfs can refuse to do what you want.

See SimCity, The Settlers, Caesar and Pharaoh city-management games and The Sims. I think there are tantrums and accidental fires in Sims.

[TomiTapio]

I'm just about ready for DF to become 3 shades harder, at this point.

Maybe it's time to try some mods (Genesis has goblin/lizardman/werewolf/mindflayer hostile civs),
or a voluntary challenge like No Digging or No Traps or Dogs-instead-of-soldiers. Or a 2x2 embark where 3 squares are ocean.

And one can mod in the workshop interdependencies my making eg. charcoal furnace that requires stone blocks, iron, and mechanisms.

[Noble Digger]

I'm just about ready for DF to become 3 shades harder, at this point.

Maybe it's time to try some mods (Genesis has goblin/lizardman/werewolf/mindflayer hostile civs),
or a voluntary challenge like No Digging or No Traps or Dogs-instead-of-soldiers. Or a 2x2 embark where 3 squares are ocean.

And one can mod in the workshop interdependencies my making eg. charcoal furnace that requires stone blocks, iron, and mechanisms.

I haven't stopped being attached to Beandagger yet, but once I do I intend to try out the new Adventurer Mode (making a 1-man fortress, you know?) or perhaps even have that adventurer take up residence at Beandagger and try to navigate its various tunnels, etc.

[NW_Kohaku]

No, breadbocks, it wasn't your post that I had seen. I'm not going to point fingers beyond that

Oh goodie, then I AM the villain!

I personally don't mind people who want to bring metallurgy even more in line with the real world, for instance, and will myself sometimes use mods that do this - but I wouldn't have wanted to be met with the full complexity of it while also still learning how the game worked.

No idea why metallurgy keeps coming up...

hmm... I guess we're talking about some thread where someone wanted the old metal system back, then?  Don't remember seeing one of those in a while, though...

The game is already plenty complex. Within that complexity are some things that don't quite behave as they might be expected to in the real world. If someone suggests something that would give miners a sense for the rock around them, I don't think that's unreasonable - skilled miners and prospectors will necessarily learn something about the structure of the stone they're digging in - and I certainly don't think it's call to attack the suggester for being too weak or too stupid to play DF.

I don't expect the forum to turn into kid-friendly Happy Sunshine Daisy Land.

But if someone is trying, is making an effort to learn the game but thinks one particular thing could use a tweak, in a manner that doesn't entirely break the feel of the game, to be a bit more forgiving

Yeah, look, you're obviously grinding your axe about something, but as long as you play this "I was just happening to be in a dark alley in middle of the night with a ski mask on, with my gun in my pocket, MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS when..." stuff, you're not going to convince people that you're the reasonable side, and "the other" is the unreasonable side.  Especially since, obviously, there's quite a few people who can fill in the blanks of these stories with their own personal experiences on the forums that are not at all like your own.

I'll show some of my experience - someone relatively new to the game (although he likes to frequently refer to how old school a gamer he is) read a post talking about aquifers, misunderstood what was being said, and so immediately jumped onto the Suggestion Forum to argue against something he completely misunderstood about the game.  After being corrected, he then blamed Toady for him not understanding the game even though the misunderstanding had nothing to do with the game itself, but what he read in a forum post.  See here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61318.msg1394289#msg1394289

I'm entirely happy to answer a question about gameplay, and frequently do.  When people claim the game is broken when they don't understand it, however, I'm much less tolerant.  When you blame the community for your lack of understanding or willingness to understand rather than admit that you'd simply made a mistake, then no, I don't really sympathize.

I think this also seems similar to Noble Digger's experience, as well, judging by what he's said.

[Shurhaian]

@NW_Kohaku: I really don't know why you're determined to pick a fight here, but please stop. You don't know my motivations, and were wrong from the first sentence of your most recent post here about them.

[breadbocks]

@NW_Kohaku: I really don't know why you're determined to pick a fight here, but please stop. You don't know my motivations, and were wrong from the first sentence of your most recent post here about them.

I have to agree with Kohaku. Who is this "them"? Is this some sort of cult, where mentioning the rael name will summon.... "them"?

[NW_Kohaku]

If I don't know your motivations, it's because you've been throwing out claims of persecution that are far too vague, which is exactly what I said.

You're arguing a blank check - you're saying someone was unreasonable somewhere, and can't we all just agree to not be unreasonable? It's something so abstract that all I can assume is we're being told half the story, if even that much.


As for "picking a fight", well, the things I've said are hardly any more invitation for argument than your own have been, recent attempts to look innocent notwithstanding. 

[Normandy]

I don't get it. A few flames and all of a sudden an entire discussion is rendered irrelevant. I don't think I've been in an academic discussion online where at least a few flames weren't thrown. The problem is when people stop contributing to the discussion and start calling out people for their flames and decide that it is their job to call for civility. It's condescending to people who try hard to ensure that every post contributes to the discussion at hand, before someone decides that because I let loose an ad homiem the entire discussion needs to be canned.

It's an overly simplistic view to think that because I argue against the farming system, that I'm a noob that doesn't know left from right or doesn't know uhmk by heart. But at the same time, it's a terrible generalization to think that NW_Kohaku is a hostile peer for arguing for what he views are his favorite features. Tact is not civility. Here's a protip: If you put aside your pride for a moment and actually consider what is being said, you might discover that in fact, there's something important being said.

Though, that being said, it is necessary to take special precaution before deciding that the best method for introducing new community members is to haze them. That I hope we can all agree on.

[Shurhaian]

@NW_Kohaku: I really don't know why you're determined to pick a fight here, but please stop. You don't know my motivations, and were wrong from the first sentence of your most recent post here about them.

I have to agree with Kohaku. Who is this "them"? Is this some sort of cult, where mentioning the rael name will summon.... "them"?

Uh... "them" refers to "my motivations", not some other entity. Simple as that. To elaborate: it was not a post by NW_Kohaku that prompted my starting this thread; it's possible that some post or posts by him contributed to my feeling that the forum is more hostile than it was, but the name certainly didn't stick in my head if so. I only mentioned metallurgy as an example that came to mind as something I've seen mods elaborate on, and which elaboration I myself am in favour of having as an option. And so on.

I don't get it. A few flames and all of a sudden an entire discussion is rendered irrelevant. I don't think I've been in an academic discussion online where at least a few flames weren't thrown. The problem is when people stop contributing to the discussion and start calling out people for their flames and decide that it is their job to call for civility. It's condescending to people who try hard to ensure that every post contributes to the discussion at hand, before someone decides that because I let loose an ad homiem the entire discussion needs to be canned.

Maybe I'm just misreading you, but not wanting to trash an entire discussion and all its potential insights is part of why I didn't try to barge in and play police to an existing thread - and why, if I see a remark that I think goes singularly out of line, I would rather report it and get on with my life, leaving the call on whether or not it's suitable to the mods, than try to shout it down myself. And by "singularly out of line" I (generally) mean something that's purely negative, offering nothing constructive, not even humor.

It's an overly simplistic view to think that because I argue against the farming system, that I'm a noob that doesn't know left from right or doesn't know uhmk by heart. But at the same time, it's a terrible generalization to think that NW_Kohaku is a hostile peer for arguing for what he views are his favorite features. Tact is not civility. Here's a protip: If you put aside your pride for a moment and actually consider what is being said, you might discover that in fact, there's something important being said.

I'm not trying to attack anyone's views on what is or is not good for the game. If I gave that impression, I apologize for that. My issue is just when they're presented in a manner that goes all the way past brusque and into insulting, to an extent that I can't help but feel that's exactly how it's intended, in response to someone who at least put enough thought into his/her own suggestion that it doesn't feel entirely out of place in the context of DF.

Though, that being said, it is necessary to take special precaution before deciding that the best method for introducing new community members is to haze them. That I hope we can all agree on.

And that's a part of what I was getting at all along - though "unpopular suggestions" can sometimes fall into that too, regardless of how long the suggester has been around(and what suggestions are popular depends on what segment of the userbase you ask). Some suggestions get made that do indeed seem to be blatantly against the direction DF is going, to the point that the suggester might be well advised to just play a different game; others seem to be in the spirit of the game, yet get attacked with a great deal of venom. I've personally seen it toward things that make the gameplay somewhat easier; I don't doubt anyone who says it's happened to suggestions that add to the difficulty, too.

If a post has some insults in the mix, well... that will happen. If a post is almost nothing but insults, that's more what I find distressing, in a community that felt gentler about their ribbing in the past.

[NW_Kohaku]

Then this again comes back to a problem of people being forced to just guess at what you mean... the only real clue we have is that it's some sort of suggestion.

The complaint is "people are meaner than they used to be", but without any kind of context as to what qualifies as justifiable anger or frustration on either side, then people are left to fill in the blanks with their own most recent situation, and if we're given nothing more to go on but game complexity arguments (which are basically the single most common type of argument in DF Suggestions), then it's almost guaranteed that anyone's been on one side or the other of one of those arguments, and most have been on both sides, depending on the issue at stake.  (And it stirs the pot to say that you can't recall one side of that argument being "mean", because shots have been fired from both sides of every single one of those arguments.)

[Cruxador]

No, breadbocks, it wasn't your post that I had seen. I'm not going to point fingers beyond that

Oh goodie, then I AM the villain!

If you feel you've been villainous, that's your own concern. Shurhaian was good enough to not point fingers, presumably in an effort to avoid a pointless confrontation. There's no need to undermine that by assuming fingers are pointed at you.

If I don't know your motivations, it's because you've been throwing out claims of persecution that are far too vague, which is exactly what I said.

You're arguing a blank check - you're saying someone was unreasonable somewhere, and can't we all just agree to not be unreasonable? It's something so abstract that all I can assume is we're being told half the story, if even that much.

I see nothing unreasonable about requesting that people be reasonable. It seems entirely acceptable to me. Do you have some reason why this might not be the case?

As for "picking a fight", well, the things I've said are hardly any more invitation for argument than your own have been, recent attempts to look innocent notwithstanding.

It seems to me that he was aware the things he was saying could be taken as confrontational by some, and has taken efforts to mitigate that. You, on the other hand, appear to be adding confrontational elements for no reason (at least, none that I see) beyond inciting argument. If you just want to get in a big nerd argument to let off steam or whatever, that's cool, but these forums aren't the place for it.

Then this again comes back to a problem of people being forced to just guess at what you mean... the only real clue we have is that it's some sort of suggestion.

It seems pretty clear that what he means is that people should be nice. A fairly simple and basic sentiment.

The complaint is "people are meaner than they used to be", but without any kind of context as to what qualifies as justifiable anger or frustration on either side, then people are left to fill in the blanks with their own most recent situation,

We are not. There is no reason not to take this at face value. He thinks people should be nice. This is a concept we're all familiar with, but that doesn't mean it's not something that can stand to be said every now and then.

[NW_Kohaku]

No, breadbocks, it wasn't your post that I had seen. I'm not going to point fingers beyond that

Oh goodie, then I AM the villain!

If you feel you've been villainous, that's your own concern. Shurhaian was good enough to not point fingers, presumably in an effort to avoid a pointless confrontation. There's no need to undermine that by assuming fingers are pointed at you.

That one was pretty clearly a joke, you know...

I see nothing unreasonable about requesting that people be reasonable. It seems entirely acceptable to me. Do you have some reason why this might not be the case?

It seems pretty clear that what he means is that people should be nice. A fairly simple and basic sentiment.

The problem is that it's so vague as to be a meaningless argument.  "People shouldn't be mean" or "people shouldn't be unreasonable" are fine on face value... until people start using their own judgements over what is mean or unreasonable.

In fact, this entire post you are making right now is essentially arguing over whether or not people like niceness or not, which is perhaps the most vacuous conversation I've been in for quite a while.

The complaint is "people are meaner than they used to be", but without any kind of context as to what qualifies as justifiable anger or frustration on either side, then people are left to fill in the blanks with their own most recent situation,

We are not. There is no reason not to take this at face value. He thinks people should be nice. This is a concept we're all familiar with, but that doesn't mean it's not something that can stand to be said every now and then.

Because this CAN'T be taken at face value - there IS no value on the face of this, so that leaves only what motives can be scratched together.

It seems to me that he was aware the things he was saying could be taken as confrontational by some, and has taken efforts to mitigate that. You, on the other hand, appear to be adding confrontational elements for no reason (at least, none that I see) beyond inciting argument. If you just want to get in a big nerd argument to let off steam or whatever, that's cool, but these forums aren't the place for it.

Oh but hey, since we're now talking about pointlessly confronting people to say that you think they are being pointlessly confrontational... It would be a nice place to respond to this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1492699#msg1492699 by saying that my original comment of "... Of course, even this thread has poor odds of having your questions answered..." was in reference to Tfaal's http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1488928#msg1488928 and my subsequent explanation of why it would be understandable for someone to try to put what is essentially a full suggestion in the FOtF thread http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1489038#msg1489038

[Cruxador]

I see nothing unreasonable about requesting that people be reasonable. It seems entirely acceptable to me. Do you have some reason why this might not be the case?

It seems pretty clear that what he means is that people should be nice. A fairly simple and basic sentiment.

The problem is that it's so vague as to be a meaningless argument.  "People shouldn't be mean" or "people shouldn't be unreasonable" are fine on face value... until people start using their own judgements over what is mean or unreasonable.

Why does it matter? Even if his judgment and yours don't align, it's not like he can cause you any harm because of it, and he doesn't even appear to bear any animosity towards anyone, here.

In fact, this entire post you are making right now is essentially arguing over whether or not people like niceness or not, which is perhaps the most vacuous conversation I've been in for quite a while.

I apologize if it seems that way to you, my intent was merely to point out that he was not saying anything particularly heinous. It may be vacuous nonetheless, but I wouldn't consider that to be an inherent flaw. It is possible for something to be worthwhile without being particularly deep.

It seems to me that he was aware the things he was saying could be taken as confrontational by some, and has taken efforts to mitigate that. You, on the other hand, appear to be adding confrontational elements for no reason (at least, none that I see) beyond inciting argument. If you just want to get in a big nerd argument to let off steam or whatever, that's cool, but these forums aren't the place for it.

Oh but hey, since we're now talking about pointlessly confronting people to say that you think they are being pointlessly confrontational... It would be a nice place to respond to this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1492699#msg1492699 by saying that my original comment of "... Of course, even this thread has poor odds of having your questions answered..." was in reference to Tfaal's http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1488928#msg1488928 and my subsequent explanation of why it would be understandable for someone to try to put what is essentially a full suggestion in the FOtF thread http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1489038#msg1489038

I know, I was merely pointing out that questions had been answered prior to the influx of content that did not belong in that thread. Sorry if I seemed confrontational. In retrospect, that probably was unwise to post.

[Greiger]

Can't we all just get along?


As for myself I am one of the ones that like the complexity of the game, and feel it would suffer if it was made simpler and less complex for reasons I will not go into.

However, I'm not going to bash on someone's opinion otherwise, unless I feel it truly necessary.  And even then I'll try to explain my view in the nicest most reasonable way possible.  Not everybody likes the same thing everyone else does, and I try to respect that.

Somebody acting insulting or hurtful because they strongly feel they are right, only makes the folks on their side of the opinion look bad.  If that was genuine hatred from my fellows in the complexity loving side of the field, I apologize.  We're all DF players one side or the other.

[insert group hug here]
Yes I skipped over the last few posts.

[Noble Digger]

:]