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[Shurhaian]

I have little doubt that I'm going to draw flak for saying this. But, frankly, I think it needs to be said.

Many aspects of the DF community are wonderful. Ingenuity abounds, and there are a number of people who are welcoming, encouraging, and helpful towards newcomers to the game and the forum.

And on the other hand, there are those who... aren't.Who disdain any request that the game be less insanely complex, less difficult to get into, less of a headache for new players - who not only brush aside such requests, but can be insulting in the process. Some people can make those insults come across as good-natured ribbing, which I don't want to see stifled; in other cases it appears downright nasty.

Please, people, bear something in mind: You may have mastered the core gameplay. You may be so reliably able to succeed even in difficult conditions that you need to turn to modding to make things challenging enough to engage you at all. That isn't everyone. I have a number of friends for whom the complexity of the game is daunting - they want to get into it, they like the wondrous things the game can produce, but the learning curve is already too steep at the beginning. It doesn't need to be even more of a cliff, just because someone didn't want there to be the slightest bit of accommodation for newer players.

Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with everyone else's approach to playing the game. But please, please don't belittle people for not wanting to get screwed over time and again by mere chance, or for otherwise wanting to catch a freaking break now and then. However much Fun losing may be, so is success. People shouldn't be subject to insults for wanting a little of it without needing to overcome quite as much frustration first.

Now, this does of course work both ways. There's absolutely no reason to be snide at someone because they do want more of a challenge - but I can't offhand recall seeing such hostility in that direction. I see plenty toward those who suggest that the game could be more forgiving.

With that said, I'll get off the soapbox now.

[Josephus]

Now, to be fair, most of the "NOT A TRUE DORF" yellers mean it ironically. Either that, or we're all victims of large-scale memetic mutation.

Either way, I don't play Fort mode much, primarily because it's so damn -random. Adventure mode is more my size.

[Dwarf]

Now, to be fair, most of the "NOT A TRUE DORF" yellers mean it ironically. Either that, or we're all victims of large-scale memetic mutation.

Either way, I don't play Fort mode much, primarily because it's so damn -random. Adventure mode is more my size.

UR NOT A TRU DORF

[Shurhaian]

I was initially going to link to one of the posts that occasioned this, but... I decided that would be inappropriate; report and move on. This wasn't anything like "not a true dwarf". That sort of thing is what I meant with the "good-natured ribbing". This was hard to see as anything other than a level insult. Not least because it was in a context of "well, this one thing is a valid concern although it doesn't affect me, but".

People who are kidding around(in the facepalm moments thread, for instance) and get told to learn to play are already being kind of self-mocking, so that's not likely to be as bad(although it certainly could be done too viciously). But if someone's honestly stating that there's a thing they have trouble with, and they get, not a helpful suggestion, but just told to stop being a baby(or worse language)? That's the sort of thing that strikes me as needlessly hostile.

[HatfieldCW]

It's a tough subject, for me.  I always try to remember that DF is in alpha, and that it doesn't even have all its bones in place yet.  From that standpoint, people wandering in and asking for interface or balance adjustments as though these were Starcraft or TF2 forums reek of ignorance and arrogance, thinking that toady will take a break from welding the frame together to pad the seat a little more for the kids who want to pretend they're already driving it.  I'm always offended by that, to some extend, even though I know that the community is a big part of DF's growth.  We depend a lot on each other, for learning and support and good times, and a large portion of the forum and community is already devoted to making suggestions about how the project should progress.

Read the eternal suggestions, peruse the bugtracker and search the forums and wiki, and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that what you want has already been asked for.  Rolling up and saying, "You know what this game needs?  A comprehensive manual and a guided tutorial and proper documentation and three distinct difficulty levels and better graphics and more mouse interface and better skill management and a bug-free military and no more unkillable forgotten beasts and a better framerate and wheelbarrows for the dwarves," isn't going to make you any friends, and if that's your first and only post on the forum you're going to be labeled, "Nubtard who thought this was a finished AAA title and didn't bother learning about it before he opened his mouth."  It's kind of like wikipedia.  Sure, anyone can weigh in, but if you've got a Ph.D and some published works on the subject, people will respect your input more.  Lurk, learn, play the game as is (Newb pack is a great starting point.  I've been playing for years and I use it now, because it's so easy to just download and run it.) and when you get all the jokes, understand other people's complaints and have seen the bulk of the content, you can go ahead and voice your opinion in a useful way.

TL;DR:  We can be civil and productive, but if you just bust into the DF community and start telling everyone how it ought to be, wear asbestos undies.

[Shurhaian]

I'm not talking about the sort of people who stroll over and want everyone handed to them. People shouldn't be blasted for making a suggestion that's already within or reasonably close to the scope of what DF does, in an appropriate manner and in the appropriate place - but if it in any way smells of making the game easier, it won't be a surprise if they are.

Yes, much of the community can be civil to those who are civil in turn. But there are those who will be outright vicious with no legitimate provocation. That is what I have issue with.

[NW_Kohaku]

Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with everyone else's approach to playing the game. But please, please don't belittle people for not wanting to get screwed over time and again by mere chance, or for otherwise wanting to catch a freaking break now and then. However much Fun losing may be, so is success. People shouldn't be subject to insults for wanting a little of it without needing to overcome quite as much frustration first.

Now, this does of course work both ways. There's absolutely no reason to be snide at someone because they do want more of a challenge - but I can't offhand recall seeing such hostility in that direction. I see plenty toward those who suggest that the game could be more forgiving.

That's funny, because I've seen PLENTY of posts that were PURE ad-hominem when I've been arguing for depth being added to the game, and say that if it adds complexity or requires people to learn more before getting thoroughly into the game, then so be it.

It's also really not much of a "plea for civility" if you put all the blame on one side, after all...  That basically means you're saying "Why can't you jerks be more civil like us, since I can't recall us ever being as jerky as you jerks?!"

[Quarterblue]

You know what this game needs?  A comprehensive manual and a guided tutorial and proper documentation

It already exists. There is a shitload of tutorials in the wiki, let alone all the video tutorials.

And three distinct difficulty levels

Not only difficulty levels already exist, but there are many more than three. If you consider all the embarking locations and features (Evil/Neutral/Good, Benign/Neutral/Savage, Aquifer, Volcano, Rock salt, etc.), there are many, many ways to play the game at different difficulties. Of course, this doesn't take modding the game or challenges into account.

and better graphics

Tilesets and 3D viewers.

and more mouse interface

I think some tilesets do that.
 

and better skill management

Manager program.

and a bug-free military

Older version.

and no more unkillable forgotten beasts

Mod the game.

and a better framerate

Disable features such as weather.

and wheelbarrows for the dwarves

I think bins, barrels and buckets do a pretty good job alone.

I don't see the point of the whole debate. Toady One and the whole community have been kind enough to provide us with plenty of easy ways to mod and use the game as we wish. If you find the game too hard, mod it. If you find it too easy, mod it. If you want more graphic support, get a tileset. If you don't like micromanagment, run a manager. If you want more help, go to the wiki or ask the forum. I've already done it and I have never been mocked or insulted, even though I'm quite new to the game.

[Shurhaian]

That's funny, because I've seen PLENTY of posts that were PURE ad-hominem when I've been arguing for depth being added to the game, and say that if it adds complexity or requires people to learn more before getting thoroughly into the game, then so be it.

It's also really not much of a "plea for civility" if you put all the blame on one side, after all...  That basically means you're saying "Why can't you jerks be more civil like us, since I can't recall us ever being as jerky as you jerks?!"

I am not psychic. I can only work with what I see.

I said in my original post that it should apply both ways, and I meant it. Your post as written is a strawman.

[NW_Kohaku]

Your post as written is a strawman.

For someone who is making a "plea for civility", you certainly seem hot to trot in throwing around accusations and starting arguments, yourself.

Maybe you should turn your non-psychic powers on analyzing your own posts?

Sure, I can start arguments, but I KNOW I'm stubborn and cantankerous, and make no attempt to disguise that, but if, as the saying goes, "you get into a hundred relationships, and they all turn out bad, have you ever considered that the only common denominator in them was YOU?"

[Vercingetorix]

TL;DR: New players need to realize DF is hard and shouldn't be made easier or simplified beyond common-sense streamlining, older players need to remember they were new once and should focus on making the game more accessible through tutorials and help in the forums.

DF is hard...hard to learn, hard if not impossible to truly master (building a colossal, embark-spanning tower out of forgotten beast soap, adamantine, and clear glass with invaders turned on in the midst of a terrifying glacier might be a good sign of mastery) and ultimately unwinnable beyond the conditions and goals you set.  I fully believe this is going to be as much the case in DF 1.0 as it is in 0.31; there will be more features, for sure, but this will simply make the game more complex and probably even more difficult for new people to jump in to.

Ultimately, new players need to accept that this game is going to have a brutal learning curve, at least for the time being; there are more important features that need to be implemented and any official tutorials are going to come much, much later.  In a sense, the difficulty can be adjusted already by turning off invaders and embarking on a safe, isolated spot.  I think the community should do what it can to help new players learn the game but at the same time we shouldn't really be all that friendly towards people who trash the game because it's too difficult for them.  Dumbing it down or simplifying it would simply tarnish the game experience for everyone, not improve it.

At the same time, though, people need to avoid being condescending towards people who don't understand basic parts of the game or who come asking for help.  Does this happen often? No, but it doesn't mean it's not a potential issue.  Experienced players need to remember when they started, in my case stumbling on to the Wiki and reading the saga of Boatmurdered but then being completely incapable of telling pig tail from phyllite and losing spectacularly...hell, I remember the sense of triumph I felt when I got my first fort to survive on its own.

[Eugenitor]

If you came here expecting an easy game to even so much as understand, you're in the entirely wrong place and MW2 is that way ---->.

This is coming from someone relatively new. Got started in .31.08. Barely figured out how to dig; so much of my initial fort's time was spent with me at the wagon trying to figure out WTF was going on. My first gripe was not being to melt ice to get water... I mean, WTF? That was before I realized that dwarves have no real business drinking water to begin with and that digging a cistern is easy stuff. I still don't know everything about this game; never used power, for example. But what do I know for a salient fact is that there is no hope, no hand-holding, and that your first few forts are expected to die painful, horrific deaths within the first year and you should feel lucky, if not utterly privileged, if they don't. Don't know how something works? That's what the wiki is for (and the wiki really does need some love from experienced players). Or good old-fashioned trial and error.

This process is called learning to play and I recommend that you engage in it.

And you will get screwed over by mere chance. That's how the game works, will work, and is expected to work. FB-proof your fort (this is possible!), keep your stockpiles high, don't dig too far into the clownite, or run the risk of dying randomly.

[Hyndis]

The game is a game for people who don't mind digging in and just trying things out.

Don't know how to make something work? Try it out. Just do it. You will never know for sure unless you try it out. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not work. If it doesn't work try something else. If it does work then you can remember that design for later.

Its SCIENCE! Its how the game is learned and how awesome things are discovered, such as the amazing power of the magma piston. People who refuse to do anything unless there is a tutorial or someone to literally hold their hand while they try something out just aggravate me. Why can't you try it out yourself? Just try it! Its not like you die IRL if Urist McMiner falls into magma.

[Eugenitor]

Its not like you die IRL if Urist McMiner falls into magma.

This seems like a flaw. I wonder if Toady will patch this out for .13?

[Vercingetorix]

That's basically what I did.  I remember a quote along the lines of how someone learned to play: "terrifying swamp, Play Now".  Throwing yourself in to a brutal environment like that might not be the best way to learn, but it makes a pretty good point...DF is a lot to understand and you're not going to get it in one go no matter how hard you try.  Reading the Wiki is a good place to start but even that's not a substitute for just getting in there and giving it a go.

That being said, once you've got a fort that can sustain itself without running out of food or alcohol, the rest isn't that bad.  You really can take on other bits and pieces over time; turn off invaders if you don't want to deal with goblins or alternatively settle in an area without them, orsettle in an area with only dwarves if you want to avoid pissing off the elves or humans, don't dig in to the caverns if you want to avoid forgotten beasts, and so on.  This doesn't mean you're not going to lose forts, including some favorites, in spectacularly stupid ways but that's part of the challenge.