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[Grakdesh]

I thought something that might give the game more variety are randomized ore deposits. Instead of having you reach certain metals at certain depths, ore is randomized (to a degree, and more vertically than horizontally). I think this would make fortresses more varied as you would grow your fortress around the veins instead of the same path always taken (i.e. straight through the mountain horizontally). But how would you find these veins if they're hidden throughout the mountain? Enter the Geomancer.

The Geomancer could be an early game noble that you get that randomly pauses the game and centers the camera on ore that he has "sensed". Perhaps adding something that allows him to detect certain minerals. Maybe a scrying stone made out of a jewel (practical use for jewels other than decoration). The better the quality of the scrying "device" the better/faster he detects veins.

One important thing to note I that if this was implemented I don't expect all ore to be randomized. I expect a certain minimum of ore to be located near the river just for a few basic things like coin minting and weapon forging. But for the most part, I feel that veins should be randomly dispersed throughout the mountain.

My next idea is being able to designate barrels for alcohol brewing use only. It's a pain to set up a large brewing operation only to find that all your barrels are full. Taking this a step further, I also suggest another individual stockpile for alcohol. Taking this even further, I also suggest being able to build a "Cellar" out of a barrel (in the same way you make a dining room out of a table, bedroom out of a bed, etc.) giving you a place to store and age alcohol. Aging alcohol improves the quality, making dwarves happier when they drink it and making it more valuable (giving you another commodity to sell).

Taking all of that even further, I suggest a taproom/tavern, creating one of those with a cask. Casks can be constructed at the brewery with a barrel and a tap (Taps can be forged at the metalsmith. Finally a practical use for brass!). This can be a place that dwarves can congregate and socialize during their break (No more wandering around outside where all the wolves/lions/tigers/bears/elephants/communists can maul them). There's also the possibility of assigning an owner and having another place for dwarves to spend their money.

EDIT: Someone suggested to me that taps should take 1 metal bar and a mechanism, I prefer this as it just makes more sense to me.

[ September 28, 2006: Message edited by: Grakdesh ]

[ September 28, 2006: Message edited by: Grakdesh ]

[axus]

I think a "detect mineral" spell would be cool, I don't think you need a whole class or set of magical gear for it though.  

The way this game works, you assign tasks and plan buildings, and the dwarves do this in the way they think best.  A task that says "Reserve item" or whatever item would be good for workshops... they pre-stockpile whatever item you want, at the expense of clutter.  Worth it for metalworking and brewing!  Otherwise, let them handle it automatically.

[Kjoery]

Today is trying to avoid dwarven magic, I'm pretty sure, so instead it'd probably be a skill that'd detects veins/gems a certain radius away. Prospecting?

[Capntastic]

HAving a Geologist noble would be cool.   He could demand you dig in a direction he senses different types of ore are and stuff.

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by Kjoery:
<STRONG>Today is trying to avoid dwarven magic, I'm pretty sure, so instead it'd probably be a skill that'd detects veins/gems a certain radius away. Prospecting?</STRONG>

It's more that magic as a whole is waiting for a much larger feature arc, really.

Although he did say, I think, that most of the Dwarven magic was going to be in artifacts and other items, often ones they have to trade for.  Well, it's not dwarven magic if they have to trade for it, but you get the point.  Presumably the alchemist will eventually be able to do things that seem like magic to the uninitiated.

Anyway, there could be some sort of early noble that publishes regular mineral surveys hinting at where ores and gems that the player doesn't have or needs a new source of can be found.  The player wouldn't have to control him at all.

Taverns would be nice, though.  A tavern could have built-in 'drink capacity', and would store drinks internally without using barrels (using barrels that were build into it during construction, maybe.)  Dwarves who wanted drinks would then go to the tavern instead of wandering over to barrels, while food haulers would bring more alcohol whenever it got low.  And of course once you got the bookkeeper individual dwarves could buy a tavern, too.

This would give the player control over where the dwarves go to drink, which would be important.

[ September 29, 2006: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Draco18s]

Detecting ore deposits would be awesome.  The fortress I have now didn't find anything but material for brass until hitting the chasm and then finding platinum.  Though I did manage to overlook a significant copper deposit that bordered the river.  Though it is about as far away North as the plat was East...
(I lost about two days of progress and forgot where things were, but the first time I did hit copper and platinum at almost the same time that time).

[rylen]

I recently read Map that Changed the World about the birth of modern geology.  It looks like Toady is already using some geology laying down rocks in bands and (possibly?) caring about which types of rock appear together.  An experienced geologist can read the rocks and predict with a decent amount of accuracy what will appear where.

If we grant the Mining noble extensive education, he can make predictions about the areas around diggings.  I see two ways to do this:
1:  Mark undug areas of the map which might might contain a mineral with the sign of that mineral.  I'm guessing this would be completely new code and is kinda random.
2:  Give him extra sight.  Most dwarves just see the rocks in the corridors.  He can see four or five rocks past that.  Now its just a matter of getting him to walk down those corridors.
2a:  Highly experienced miners learn their rocks.  This added sight could also be given, perhaps at a reduced rate, to the legendary miners.

Myself, I like keeping the magic elements down.  I'm partial to the low fantasy feel the game has right now.

Rylen

[Jandrews]

quote:Originally posted by rylen:
<STRONG>I recently read Map that Changed the World about the birth of modern geology.  It looks like Toady is already using some geology laying down rocks in bands and (possibly?) caring about which types of rock appear together.  An experienced geologist can read the rocks and predict with a decent amount of accuracy what will appear where.
Rylen</STRONG>

I completed a geology minor in college and can assert that Toady has done a pretty decent job with the layout of your basic rocks. He intentionally clumps sedementary rocks around the river (with limestone forming the channel where the river runs through), which is quite logical.  You'll find metamorphic rocks and igneous intrusions around several areas, but mostly will find igneous rocks around the magma flow.  Rock types are organized very well at this point, and it would be a big mistake to randomize them.

Cocerning the minerology and layout of the metalic ores, here's some specific reasons why minerals should not be randomized.

1) Gold usually occurs within igneous (and I believe specifically intrusive, not extrusive) formations.  It is true that you can find gold in sedementary deposits, but that is due to errosion and deposition rather than occurance.  Therefore, gold needs to remain near the magma flow.

2) Malachite (copper) normally occurs at or near limestone. Therefore, it is important that Malachite remains in its current position.

3) Platinum usually is obtained from sedimentary/alluvial occurences, though commercially it is normally extracted as a bi-product of nickel, normally at or near extrusive igneous rocks.

4) Cassiterite normally is found either in alluvial depositions (normally meaning an outside river delta), but is found to occur naturally in igneous deposits.

5)Sphalerite forms (usually) near igneous deposits as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong- I had to look this up since I never heard of it before...)

6) Bituminous coal is a carboniferous biomass where compression and deposition occured more rapidly than decay.  This isn't a classical mineral, so it could indeed be found in places outside of the chasm-magma region, though there is no problem keeping it where it lies.

All in all, Toady has put these minerals (and coal) in the places they most likely would be found.  A decent geologist could, in fact, use the information they glean from rocks at any point in the stronghold to determine the possible occurence of minerals (and gems), though a "mere human" could not predict with great accuracy where a vein would be found (rather, he'd point to where one might be found within a certain parameter of accuracy).

Sorry for the geological lesson.    

Edit:

quote:2: Give him extra sight. Most dwarves just see the rocks in the corridors. He can see four or five rocks past that. Now its just a matter of getting him to walk down those corridors.

Rather than give this to a new noble, just give this ability to t miners.  I would let legendary miners "see" two or three rocks past where they are digging, assuming that lengendary dwarven minors have a great grasp of Geology mixed with dwarven keeness.

[ September 29, 2006: Message edited by: Jandrews ]

[Aquillion]

Hmm...  here's an alternate idea that just occurred to me.

We have crafting moods and military combat trances, but we don't really have anything like that for mining.  Oh, sure, like Toady mentioned in another thread, miners currently go into fey mood and use their mining ability to make stone furniture, but that's a fudge.

Why not occasionally have miners get inspired and, on their own initiative, dig off a shaft to where they've determined a new source of some necessary mineral is?

Of course it's not so simple.  If such a shaft opened up onto a new cave element like the river, chasm, lava, or outdoors, that would be unfair to the player.  In fact, creating any sort of new path from one part of the map to another could ruin the player's plans.  It could still be done safely, though, with a little calculation:  The dwarf would just have to determine a path that doesn't start from any existing room, doesn't go through any detailed stone, avoids the fortress as much as is possible,  won't cause a collapse, and doesn't touch on any other open areas of any sort, aside from its one-square entrance.  (It can be assumed that the nature of the inspiration guides them around even undiscovered rivers or whatever.)  This would fit into the mood of the game so far, and would free the player from constantly searching for new minerals themselves, which can become drudgery after a while.  When the fortress is low on a particular mineral and has few sources for it, the chance that a dwarf will go into a trance to search for that metal increases.

What do you think?  Maybe it should have to wait for rewalling, of course, since then the player could fix up any problems it caused.

[ September 29, 2006: Message edited by: Aquillion ]