Or, to make it much less complex, and therefore simpler for Toady, just being able to assign percentages to different attack tags. This way, we could set a weak, not too-often used pommel smash, and at the same time have a stronger semi-used attack with the flat of the blade, in addition to it slashing most commonly.
Hitting with the flat of the blase is stupid. In fact it's exactly the sort of stupidity one would expect from a raw recruit with a sword. Not a bad idea at all to implement if it's skill linked. The pommel strike isn't so bad, but there's never a good reason to strike with the flat of the blade. Maybe something unskilled dwarves would do on accident. Legendary dwarves would never strike incorrectly while neophytes would do it about half the time. Pommel strikes would be a wrestling thing. No reason to do that whatever your skill unless your opponent is grappling you, or you're an adventurer or guard who wants to subdue someone without killing them.
Say for common swords
pierce 50% slash 25%-50%, bash 25%-0% but replace pierce with pommel bash if someone's grappling you.
All swords would have the pommel bash, but some would lack either or the pierce or slash (but not both or it's just a hilt)
common Axes would probably just slash with 50% slash 50% bash when being grappled.
Specialty axes would basically be either axe/hammers, axe/spears, or axe/spear/hammers. Axe/picks would be functionally the same as axe/spears.
common Spears pierce only normally, but bash only in wrestling.
maces would I guess do either gore or bash depending on if they're spiked or flanged. Maybe bash only in wrestling, and a weaker version.
Swords are pretty much swords, and maces are pretty much maces, but axes, hammers, picks, and spears can be unified. You can reduce a lot of polearms to some combination of those.
Doesn't hurt to read up and educate yourselves, or to be open to debate..
But just incase....tl;dr You can skip to the bottom: "All in All"
Flat of the Blade I wouldn't ever say that striking with the flat of the blade is stupid. Sure, it
is something novices may do on accident due to a lack of experience with the weapon. Is it stupid? In that case, it is, but not always. It may not be an effective way of causing damage, but that does not make it stupid. It is only stupid when you are trying to deal damage and you flat out and fail to cause any.
In a normal combat situation, it may be useless. But what if I want to whack somebody and take them by surprise (to feint, throw their balance off, surprise them as to create an opening)? What about a backhand snap that lightly flats against the target so I can use the momentum to rebound off my target and throw his game out of whack while I quickly attack with an on-hand attack?
Against a heavily armored opponent it would be ineffective in creating damage, however the force and the feint may be enough to stall them for a moment while you take the upper hand. What if I were under orders to take an unarmored target (gobo? kobo?) prisoner and not to use deadly force? What if I were to detain an insane dwarf friend, or a dwarf throwing a tantrum without the use of deadly force? The flat of the blade could easily and quite effectively be use to my advantage. While still dangerous, it poses a possible solution to a problem and could be an effective tool to the well-trained swordsdwarf.
Pommel - The Pommel is only so effective. A pommel bash is pretty ineffective. In close-combat it could maybe crack a skull, at least probably get your foe off of you. Only useful in very-close combat, probably only if your enemy is trying to wrestle/grapple you. To be honest, it's not very effective. Small damage, maybe knocking the person back or causing him to lose his grapple on you. It can be done with any weapon, just bash them with what you're holding, or a piece of it. Which leads me to my next...
Butt-Spike - Similar to a pommel strike, but more deadly. Butt-spike is a small pointy piece of metal (doesn't even need to be very pointy, just enough to focus the force into a smaller, more deadly, point) that's added to just about any weapon. Pommel of a sword. Haft of an axe, mace, hammer, bottom of a spear. Anything. Butt-spike now takes a mediocre strike and turns it into a much more deadly blunt strike. Only useful in very close combat again when your movement is limited. Great way to surprise a foe who intends to tie your weapon up in order to gain the advantage. You can now much more effectively add dents to heavy armor and pierce skulls for maximum blunt trauma.
Spear - As i've said. Anything can make a quick blunt attack in close-combat for little damage. A Spear, as we all know is primarily piercing damage. Against heavy armor or light/no armor, it pierces very effectively. What most people disregard is the fact that a spear is also a slashing weapon. It is
never a primarily slashing tool. It is primarily a piercing tool. However, unless you simply are wielding a sharpened stake, it can be used for slashing!
The majority of spearheads
are designed for piercing. But for serious use the edges would be sharpened. As in my last discussion I pointed out that slashing is simply ineffective against armored targets. The same here. The spearhead has a limited sharpened blade, and can only be so effective in cutting. But if you thrust and miss, you can easily swipe your blade in and make a cut. Obviously, as cutting/slashing does not work against well-armored targets, this won't hurt a dwarf who is a walking tank. On the other hand, a target that is unarmored or lightly armored (gobo/kobo?) will be susceptible to slashing attacks, and will thus be effective. Thrust-slash. Keep your opponent at bay. If you're always thrusting... if you miss, or your opponent knocks your spearhead down or away, recoiling to strike again gives your enemy time to close for an attack, whereas if you swing a slashing attack at him, you can make an attempt to keep the upper hand and keep him on the defensive so you don't lose the upper hand.
Likewise, defending against spears: Knock spear-point to ground. Step on spear. Hit target. Profit. I know this because I have a 6foot shortspear for Heavy Armored Combat, and one of my friends did just that to me.
Polearms - Polearms are just that. Arms on a pole. A spear is a form of a polearm. The spear we are most familiar with in Dwarf Fort is a short-spear, which is approximately the size of the wielder, give or take a foot or two maybe. Long-spears, or pikes, are often up to twice the size of the wielder. These are used from behind the main line of battle to be reached over those in the front to either create openings in the enemy lines or to take advantage of openings and attack enemies.
Pikes are probably the most familiar polearms. Halberd also being a common polearm, adding an axe blade to a pike to give an additional attack slash/hack, and also adding an appendage with which to hook enemy weapons and shields to create openings. Hammerheads, maceheads, and generally any combination of weapons can be, and were, attached to a polearm.
An overlooked polearm, which I believe somebody referenced at one point, is the naginata. Basically a sword at the end of a pole. The European version of this was the Glaive (though the precise shape and length of the blade varied from that of a Naginata). It was quite similar and could be used for slashing. Lengths varied. As having done some Heavy-Armored Combat in the SCA for a while, I knew some folks who used 6-foot glaives for combat, and even one who had a 6-foot
earspoon. I wish there was a picture of this somewhere, or that I had one of my old friend's. Similar in nature to the boar spear, it had a cross-shape to the end of it. The cross-piece larger than that of a typical boar spear. Good for tying up weapons and giving combatants a challenging time. Sharpened cross-piece could be used for unexpected attacks.
Misc. I'm too long-winded for my own good. I know this. It is but my nature. I'm spent. I don't know what else there is to comment on. Axes are axes. Pick is a pick. Pickax is not really an axe, but i suppose is wielded similarly, except that it causes hell of a piercing attack. Pick and a Hammer are similar. It actually depends on what kind of hammer DF uses. I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Military picks and hammers are often the same. War hammers, while I prefer to picture them as
something more dwarfy like this....... a war hammer
is actually this, and typically has a pick/spike on the reverse side. A pickaxe is technically not a weapon, but a mining tool that can be used in the same fashion as a war hammer could be.
All in all, I don't actually believe there is a
wrong way for a weapons master to wield a weapon. If you are a master with that weapon (ie Legendary Status) you are perfectly fluent in the use of this weapon, and should therefore also be perfectly fluent in using this weapon to your advantage in not-traditional situations, using it as an effective tool for just about any kind of damage (assuming it has a mode to provide said damage type).
It's like my reference to the sword with a rounded tip. It can still be used very effectively for thrusting. It no longer does piercing damage, but against an unarmored foe, thrusting with a rounded/dull tip still can be quite painful and damaging. It could easily bruise, and you could probably crush a mans windpipe pretty easily like that. Assuming they were unarmored. Blunt tip would have no effect on heavy armor.
Limiting yourself to not thrusting just because it's not a sharpened tip is just limiting the possibilities of your own successful combat. Likewise, don't sell other weapons short simply because they weren't designed specifically for something. It doesn't mean you can't adapt the weapon and use it in interestingly unique and successfully strange manners. I could hold the blade of a sword and wield it like a baseball bat, using the guard and pommel to easily bat someone and crack a skull, maybe daze someone with a helmet on (I would know, a good solid smack to a helmet can ring you like a bell and this is quite unsettling. The force of the impact could leave you jostled for a second, and the noise is AWFUL). I could use the guard to tie up a weapon and bodyslam/trip a person to the ground so that I can stab him with the tip of the sword while he is prone.
Actual combat isn't always pretty and perfect like one might think it is. Things go wrong, situations change. Unexpected things happen. You drop your weapon, your weapon breaks. Combat is not ideal like combat-training often can be. People tire and technique slips into a contest of worry, intimidation, and fear as two contestants struggle to find the upper hand. A tired parry is an imperfect, slow parry. A tired riposte is an off-target weaker riposte. A tired man might not have the strength to hold his shield up all the way after a long time, or to keep his sword as raised as it should be. Form fails, technique fades. What is proper and improper begin to blur as you worry more about surviving.
Combat is survival of the fittest. It doesn't
always mean using a hammer for bashing, or a spear for piercing, or an axe for hacking. Likewise: it doesn't mean you should ignore the obvious either. A master of a given weapon would use all of his options, even those not readily apparent.
I don't mean to propose the total recreation of combat and all things weapon. I just wish to share knowledge of weaponry and combat with the community, and with Toady, with the intention of progressing towards more realistic combat and use of weaponry in Dwarf Fort. I feel the expansion of additional attack/damage types should be invested in.
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Topic: Weapons discussion panel, lets make this work! :D (Read 7435 times)