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Author Topic: Weapons discussion panel, lets make this work! :D  (Read 7426 times)

Iden

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Re: Weapons discussion panel, lets make this work! :D
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2009, 01:28:56 pm »

Quote
wrestlers should stand little to no chance 1v1 against an experienced weapon user

That isn't exactly true. Quite a few weapons have an effective weapon range that doesn't include point blank.

So what some people did is that they would go right up to the opponent preventing them from attacking and they would usually stab them with a smaller weapon like a dagger or Javalin. (usually this was done because... well... it was the only thing you could do)

Well, that was a lead-on into the next paragraph. That was a segue into the next thought. The reason why I feel that way, that a wrestler should stand little-to-no-chance 1v1 against an experienced weapon user is because of the idea that followed: the idea that he would need to move in to close-range in order to successfully attack. The swordsman can attack from a much farther distance and keep the wrestler from closing in, causing the wrestler a lot of trouble and risk.

I say experienced because if you were to assess the situation properly and fight defensively, not attacking needlessly and leaving yourself open (and therefore giving the wrestler the opportunity to close-in on you to attack) the wrestler's work is really cut out from him. The wrestler, in order to try to take the upper hand and move in on a defending swordsman (who is poised to attack) would be blatantly risking his neck. The swordsman should make an attack whenever the wrestler tries to close that distance, which is a risk for the wrestler since he can only dodge, he can't block or parry. Risk vs. Reward. Maybe the wrestler feints, the swordsman swings, the wrestler jumps in hoping to get in at the swordsman - now the wrestler needs to worry about timing, "can I make it to the swordsman before the swordsman can make a backhand swing and take my head off? can I dodge that if he does?"

It's risky. It's not impossible. The wrestler can win. In fact if the wrestler can close in, he probably stands a pretty good chance of winning (unless the swordsman also happens to be an experienced wrestler -- lol). The problem is the if.

Side note:
Also one fencing strategy I actively employ revolves primarily around that concept of "the three melees." If I don't have the right-of-way, I either want to be farther away from my opponent (Long Range) so they can't reach me and score.. Or I want to be too close for them to hit me (Close-in) until I can get the right-of-way back. When I have right of way, I return to lunging distance (Mid-range) in an attempt to score. In fencing, right-of-way depends strictly on your arm remaining straight at all times and bending it will lose you the right-of-way. I need to be in mid-range for them to strike me. If i'm not there, it makes their job harder.

Likewise with the Wrestler v. Swordsman. Taking a defensive strategy revolving around the concept of the "three melees", if you actively keep in mind where you need to be, you make their life hell trying to get where they need to be. It makes their chances of success smaller. Especially when the wrestler cannot parry, block or even make attacks while his opponent can threaten him with his longer-reaching weapon. At mid-range, trying to close, the swordsman can sidestep/retreat and attempt to keep his blade facing his opponent while maintaining distance and a constant threat of his weapon between them. Likewise the swordsman can also attack if need be. It doesn't need to be a heavy attack that will open himself up much or throw him off-balance, just something to keep threatening his opponent. As long as that sword remains between them, it makes the wrestlers job more difficult.

Conversely, the smart Wrestler should be thinking the same thing, keeping in mind those three melees: "I need to be at long range so he can't hit me, until I can find an opening so that I can get close-in and attack him." The smart wrestler should wait out the man with the weapon and not be impatient and put himself at greater risk.

While fencing, we are taught to NEVER over-extend and reach for the opponent's blade in order to take back the right-of-way. It leaves yourself open and a really good fencer will take a point on you right there. A lot of us are still new and not that quick yet. Everyone, even those who are second-years, has a tendency to over-extend and reach for the blade anyway. The wrestler and the swordsman both might try testing each other -- trying risky things -- trying to get the other one to open themselves up to attack.


Edit: I'm very long-winded. I realize this. My deepest apologies. I have deep, deep troubles with keeping things from getting lengthy. My signature befits me. Most sincerely the third one. ^.^
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 01:42:02 pm by Iden »
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ManaUser

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Re: Weapons discussion panel, lets make this work! :D
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2009, 04:03:52 pm »

Hey, I said he was tough, not necessarily smart or skillful.
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Neonivek

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Re: Weapons discussion panel, lets make this work! :D
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2009, 04:37:10 pm »

It becomes a lot easier to close the distance once you are speaking about the heavy weapons (Armor too, while even platemail wasn't super heavy, it is still heavy and inflexable enough to give an opponent a distinct advantage) and multiple opponents.

That and "Super skill" which applies uniquely to dwarf fortress.

Though people disarming skilled armed opponents with their bare hands is nothing new. So a Wrestler isn't as disadvantaged as one might think. That "Little-No Chance" starts to become much more likely.

"we are taught to NEVER over-extend"

The chopping sword gets its strength from full on swings while the Rapier gets its strength from pressure as light as 5 pounds.

"The swordsman should make an attack whenever the wrestler tries to close that distance"

There are two distinct rules of thought I'd think would apply here

1) The Swordsmen would put his sword between his opponent and himselve to disuade him from attacking.
and
2) The Swordmen should open up the distance to allow his opponent to attempt to cross the distance

"unless the swordsman also happens to be an experienced Wrestler"

Conversely they should assuming he is experienced and isn't a modern day weapon expert or doing it for sports.

If he is training for combat it should include hand to hand
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 04:45:45 pm by Neonivek »
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