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[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Cosmonot:
[QB]I think you'll find that while many people will agree that exotic weapons should be left out, few people will agree on which weapons are exotic. This is a fantasy game, after all.[QB]

I think we can safely draw the line at "practical".  When you look at stuff like dnd dual weapons. 2 sword blades on the end of a staff. You now have the disadvantages of the spear, quarterstaff AND shortsword combined. And yet, none of the benefits you usually get from such weapons. So if the weapon is compatible with the physiology of at least one race. We can include it, but we also leave the door open, in case you really do want those sword chucks.

We can categorise weapons as 3 things, generic (longsword, mace ect), variant (saber, flanged mace) and specialized (estoc, boar spear, rapier) A boar spear is a spear specifically designed for hunting. A katana is a long sword built to maximize slashing damage.

Generic items would be available everywhere. Variants are just slightly different generic weapons and overall, they handle the same way. Specialized weapons are only used to fill a niche, if that niche doesnt exist you would never see one, with a few exceptions. Rapiers are not very good on the open battlefield, but people often used them for duels.

So lets say we have generic dwarf kindom #1. It generally prefers axes and swords. Order up a greatsword, and thats what you get, a greatsword.
Hike up the mountain to dwarf kindom #2. This one relies on hunting for food, ask for a spear and you would be given the option of getting a boar spear or another variant instead of the plain spear.
Over the mountain is human kindom #3. If you ask for a greatsword here, you get handed a claymore, which handles slightly differently.
Kingdom #4 is set on an open plain, and fends off a lot of mounted bandits. Ask for a spear and you will be handed a yari instead.

In this way, weapon selection is determined by culture and enviroment. Weapons built for very specific uses like the estoc and boar spear will only be available from kingdoms that actually NEED such weapons. Other "generic" weapons like the longsword would be replaced by regional variants depending on the culture.

There is also the random factor of course. One dwarf kingdom could have a law banning shortswords or something because they are seen as bad luck.

[Capntastic]

You can already mod in weapons as you please, for the most part.

As for a dislike of 'non-european' weapons, you have to keep in mind that (aside from already having macquahitls [obsidian swords] and blowguns), DF is just as much a world-creation sim type thing as it is an 'RPG', so being able to select weapons for different cultures would make sense.   There is no Europe in DF.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>You can already mod in weapons as you please, for the most part.

As for a dislike of 'non-european' weapons, you have to keep in mind that (aside from already having macquahitls [obsidian swords] and blowguns), DF is just as much a world-creation sim type thing as it is an 'RPG', so being able to select weapons for different cultures would make sense.   There is no Europe in DF.</STRONG>

Good point, and I am currently hitting myself for not thinking of it myself.

Of course the different species should have different style weapons, and of course the different cultures within the species should have different style weapons.

Throwing sticks, spears, knives, clubs and swords tend to evolve in every culture, and from that point evolve according to the needs and tastes of the culture. In Australia, for example, throwing sticks evolved immensely into what we now know as the boomerang, while Europe saw massive evolution in the sword area.

Maybe one could generalise and say that less advanced cultures have less specialised weapons? Primitive enough gobbos will have only basic swords, sticks and whatnot whereas the advanced dwarves would have some pretty outlandish (more specialised weapons, such as the gun-sword, tend to be pretty silly taken out of context).

Of course the cultures would have weapons based around their needs (light, portable weapons for elves), the materials available to them (again, elves use a lot of wood), their physical characteristics (dwarves don't rely much on longbows), and their level of craftsmanship with the materials at hand (dwarves might be a lot better at making stone weapons than for example humans who'd probably be more into metals).

This could be represented in-game by variables set in world generation. Proximity to readily available metal makes the culture tend toward metal weapons. Proximity to a lot of game makes the culture tend toward weapons useful in hunting. Open ranges would make for different hunting weapons than forests, etc.

And if the culture is close to another culture, they'd be a lot swifter at evolving their weapons of war.

[adude]

<STRONG>Yeah, id rather not pollute the game with dual katana wielding ninjas and stuff like that. The really exotic stuff we can do without.
</STRONG>

I strongly agree, if only because, except for D&D enthusiasts and 100 Years War re-enactors, "exotic" == "obscure".

I, despite all the benefits of a higher education (hum hum hum), have been confused even by apparently standard European weapon-words simply because they are no longer in common use.  Outside of history books, I've never heard of a bardiche or a bec de corbin, and from the names alone have very little idea as to their appearance or specific function.  I've beaten Nethack as a samurai and I still don't know what the heck yumis are supposed to be.  I'm just not interested in the taxonomy of historical and exotic weapons--and I am far from alone.

I say, rather than mess with everyone by using obfuscatious notation, call a spade a spade, a spadroon a sword, a Mameluke sword a sabre, and a Zweihander a two-handed sword.  To get a range of similar arms, you can work in adjectives: "a serpentine greatsword," "a two-balled flail," or, for regional variety, "a <civilisation>ish broad-tipped deathspear".  Thus all the specialised mauls, pikes, and so on can be described in simple, even randomly-generated, terms.  You could still have your curvy, spiky, triple-headed ninja axes: they'd just be called that explicitly.

Wouldn't that keep life nice and tidy?

[ August 15, 2007: Message edited by: adude ]

[TakiJap]

Aww, I was just going to say that. ^

Though I didm't take the idea as far ahead. Anyways it wouldn't make much sense if there were swords called katanas or zweihanders since those languages don't exist in DF. All the names for uncommon or culture specific weapons should be made with RNG and they should have a good description.

[4bh0r53n]

why not have a zweihander (translates from german as "two handed" i think) and turn that into the different languages. For instance:
Dwarvish: A Nobotad
Elven: A Teme-raya
Goblin: A Stazgud-nagm
Human: A Ladm
And then when you look at the weapon description it would say:
"A large sword that needs to be held in two hands. From the style of the blade it was forged by the <race>."
That would add the effects of culture if each culture called the weapons by their own names. I feel that that would add more to the feel of the civilisation's culture.

(edit) checked up all the names in the raws

[ August 15, 2007: Message edited by: 4bh0r53n ]

[mickel]

I strongly agree with the above posters. Because, after all, "katana" and "zweihänder" are Japanese and German words, respectively, none of which are spoken by the cultures in Dwarf Fortress.

The information about the weapon in the description could potentially be dependant on some factor, like your skill in swords for figuring out how to wield it, to some sort of "lore" skill to realise where it came from etc. And the more you know, the better a price you get at the merchant's later on.  

But that's another department.

[Tamren]

Whenever you pick up a new weapon, unless it is an exact copy of your old one, there should be a period of "getting used to"

So if you have a greatsword and you get a bigger one, it would take you some time to learn to use it, even though you are highly skilled with greatswords in general.

[gloogorshkin]

I have to say, the whole "same weapon, different flavor" thing seems like it could be just right.  But I'd also like to see a little bit more than just the name change--say the Dwarven weapons tend to be more focused on power, Elven more on agility and graceful use, humans would be balanced (as always) and the goblins... well, goblins would have some really nasty, sinister stuff.  Like, rip out organs in painful ways stuff.  They aren't really all that primitive--they do have iron weapons at the very least, and not even every human civ has that--so I'm thinking that the little goblins could easily fire up the forges and make some very intricately designed killing tools.

As for specific weapons that I'd want in--I would really like some tools that would enhance/use the wrestling skill in some way.  Weapons that you use when you're really up close and personal, or when they don't see you coming if at all possible.  I specifically would like to see a garrote of some sort (a thin, strong wire or cord which has some means to grip it on the ends, for those who may not know) for use against unsuspecting enemies.  It would synergize very nicely with the ambushing skill--just imagine, sneaking up next to that elite kobold bowman and tearing his throat open before he even knows what's happening!

Practical?  Not really any more so than breaking their ams and strangling them.  But really, really cool.  And much quicker, and more silent.  Really, I just want more stuff to make use of in the wrestling menu.

[Jothki]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>I strongly agree with the above posters. Because, after all, "katana" and "zweihänder" are Japanese and German words, respectively, none of which are spoken by the cultures in Dwarf Fortress.

The information about the weapon in the description could potentially be dependant on some factor, like your skill in swords for figuring out how to wield it, to some sort of "lore" skill to realise where it came from etc. And the more you know, the better a price you get at the merchant's later on.  

But that's another department.</STRONG>

None of the cultures speak English, either, so longswords, axes, and hammers are out.

[Turgid Bolk]

Yes, but while nobody is "really" speaking English, it all gets automatically translated for the benefit of the player (in fact the only time you see any of the in-game languages is names, and those are followed by a translation of the name into English), which is why it makes sense to me to "translate" things like kukri and katana and zweihander and even English words into functional descriptions.  So it might be cool to have each civ have a different name for "rapier", I would still like to easily and immediately see it's a dang sword, a pointy one.  I think having the basic "class" of a weapon be the most prominent visible thing about it, then add all the details and civ names and flavor text in the description, or at least somehow secondary, would help me most.

[mickel]

Functional descriptions would take away a lot of confusion too. Different languages don't always overlap completely, not even within one culture. In my native language, an epée, a dress sword, a rapier, and a sidesword are all referred to by the same name, despite being very different weapons. The epée being a thrust-only weapon that's strictly competetive duelling while the sidesword a long war sword that's quite capable of decapitating people.

What I meant to say with this is that not only are weapons named differently in different cultures, they're also classified in different ways. But that doesn't prevent me from seeing an espada ropera or a korbschläger and seeing that they're pretty much a rapier.

And what I mean by that is that I completely agree with functional descriptions first, local names after.  

[Fieari]

So, what is the "functional" name for a katana, or rapier?  These words describe pretty specific objects, after all.  What kind of naming scheme would be used?

I think the naming scheme would tie into mechanics pretty tightly.  What would be best is a set of base weapons, and then modifiers.  So you could have a short slashing sword, or a long piercing sword... that sort of thing.  These types or weapons would be given names in their local languages, of course.

Each base weapon would have to have specific properties... the things it can be used for, the things it can't.  Most weapons can be customized pretty far... swords obviously can be made to cut or stab, but so can spears (naginata, for instance, is a spear with a long blade at the end used to cut the legs off of charging horses).  On the other hand, swords require exponentially more strength to use the bigger you make them, while spears have exponentially less power the shorter you make them (and while longer spears give you more reach, longer spears leave you nearly HELPLESS against someone who gets in your range).  Different weapons would have different "Ramps", so to speak, for how customization effects them.

Each ramp would be tied to two (or more? databases can handle 1-many links after all...) descriptors of the weapon.  Descriptors would include reach (min AND max), damage, critical multiplier, required strength, speed, and so forth.  And each ramp would then be set to a functional descriptor, and for best results, would even use fuzzy logic to determine the names... is it short or long?  Is it pointy or broad?  These could well be sliding scales!

This would make for a fully customizable weapon system... in game no less!  Creating true variety in weapons that have real game effects while still giving reason for one type of weapon over another.  The RAWs wouldn't define specific weapons, but the ramps instead, and each entry in the RAW would define a new skill for its use.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Fieari:
<STRONG>So, what is the "functional" name for a katana, or rapier? </STRONG>

A katana? Medium to long bladed single edged slashing sword. If I recall they come in straight variants as well as curved, meaning some could be used for thrusting. But they're firmly in the "hack and slash" category, along with the claymore and spatha.

Unfortunately, there are as many systems to classify swords as there are people who work with classifying swords if not more, indicating that it's not a very easy job.

And once other weapons get mixed in, it'll be one interesting mix.

[mickel]

It would be interesting if one could replace the arbitrary values for damage and value (which annoy me to no end in most RPGs) and instead make these a function of other parameters. The damage a sledgehammer does is, after all, a function of the shape of the hammer and the energy with which it strikes. The energy in turn is a function of the mass, etc. etc. and in the end it comes down to it's size, material, and craftsmanship - which are three factors in determining it's price.

But that's all extremely complicated.