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[Tamren]

Lets try out something new. I will host a panel. What that means is i set a general topic and choose a few key issues. The goal here is to figure out what we want, and pare the idea down to what we can get. This will allow us to be very detailed as long as people stay focused to one specific topic. Once the first topic is said and done, i will summarize what we have accomplished and pick another.

Sound good?

-- Topic 1: New melee weapons
To start it off, new weapon ideas. The current selection is rather lacking, and depending on the type they all work the same. Bladed weapons like axes and sword tend to lop off limbs and blunt weapons like hammers sent monsters flying. In reality they would work slightly differently.

Gameplan:
1. List all the weapons you could possibly want in the game. Be as detailed as possible as to what the weapon IS. A spear is a polearm composed of a round pole and a sharpened point, not "a pointy stick".
2. Now that you know what you want, how does it work? A spear kills people by poking holes in them. A boar spear on the other hand has a crossbar so that enraged animals impaled by the spear can not move up the shaft and attack the wielder. These differences are important!
3. Optionally, list variants of weapons. Spears can include boar spears, lances, pikes, javelins, pilum ect ect. All of which are distinct weapons with specific uses.

In terms of scale, any race can use any weapon. A dwarven pike will work the same as a human pike, it will just be somewhat smaller.

[Zeofar]

Items wanted.

1.Claws (As innate weapons for Rakshasa [Yay for Rakshasa!{The Rakshasa thing is just a side note, so don't focus on it please}]and as sorts of attachable gaunlet like things, similar to katars as I say, but not quite the same.)

2.Katars, or punching daggers as some might know them. Basically a large dagger attached to your arm. If you've seen Full Metal Alchemist, there you go.

3.Rapiers. Foils. Epees. If you don't get it by now, you probably never will.

4.Off hand weapons. All kinds really. Basically any weapon traditionally
used in the off (Left, for most people) hand when using two weapons at once. Main Gauches, Daggers (I don't think we have those, right?), and such.

5. Sabres. A one sided blade for slashing or stabbing.

How they work.

1.Claws - Mostly slashing and swiping type attacks, but punch type moves wouldn't be ineffective. What else can I say?

2.Katars - Definitely used for punching exclusively, except for extremely close quarters combat and wrestling type moves, although that could get dangerous for your own person.

3.Rapiers - Thrusting and stabbing. Most other moves should be completely useless.

4.Off Hand Weapons - These could have all kinds of different attack types and uses, so yeah.

5.Sabres - Err... A one sided blade for slashing or stabbing. What else?

Variants.

1. Claws - Different styles, although this would be relatively useless.

2. Katars - Multiple blades, smaller blades which do slightly less damage but are lighter? Again, this would be mostly for style.

4. Off Hand Weapons - Yah, this is where the serious Variants come in. Main Gauches, Daggers, Spiked shields (I suppose that would count), and the like. I can't think of alot at the moment (Strange, since I'm big on dual wielding.) but you guys know what I mean.

---------------------------------------------

Well, thats what I could think of at the moment. I hope this could help Toady in some way.

[Turgid Bolk]

How about a morning star?  These are similiar to maces, but the ball of the mace is connected to the handle by a chain, like this fella.  This basically increases the damage you can do, and maybe you could have the option of "winding up", or spinning the thing around to do some extra damage.  Of course it probably wouldn't take you a whole turn, just some extra time to get it spinning.  (There could also be a small chance to have a "critical failure" where you accidentaly smack yourself with it, particularly if you don't have much skill.  Or not.)  Some even have two or three balls. Ouch.
An awesome variant (once temperature and fire is fleshed out a bit) would be a very lightweight morningstar or rope with a small pouch at the end...which you lit on fire.  That would require a lot of practice, but would be absolutely terrifying.  Or just keep it simple with torches, flaming arrows, and the like.

Also, I think it would make sense when looking at the weapon for it to say "menaces with spikes of {metal}" on spiky weapons, and this would indicate if the mace or morningstar had just a heavy rounded ball at the end, or had spikes that did extra damage/gore damage.  And, of course, menaced.      :mad:

I know someone already suggested this in a thread, but a sling would be a good addition.  A sling is just a couple ropes tied to a pouch, which lets you swing and release rocks and other small objects at high speed and accuracy.  (The pouch can just be braided directly from the rope, no need for leather.)  This would, I suppose, use the throwing skill, but would let you throw farther, with more accuracy and damage.  Your ammo is lying all over the ground, and you might even make one out of rope or cloth.
A similiar throw-enhancer is an atlatl, a small piece of wood used to launch spears (or arrows).  Again, allowing more range and accuracy for spear users.  This could use the spear or throwing skill.  Also very simple to make (if you can get some wood).

Brass knuckles.  Or iron knuckles or what have you.  You would wear it like a ring (i.e. you could still hold things in your hand) but it would add a bit more damage to your punches.  These could also "menace with spikes" for a little extra damage/gore damage.  And they're very cheap, so even a drunk or two might have one.

Slightly OT, but speaking of spikes, what about spiked greaves and armor?  Could do some damage to punching attackers, or dig into creatures when wrestling.  Plus look really cool.  Which doesn't mean much with these graphics, but maybe it will strike fear/awe into all who look upon you, when that kind of thing goes in.  Menacy!  :mad:

[ August 14, 2007: Message edited by: Turgid Bolk ]

[Zaratustra]

Chain weapons like nunchakus and three-piece-staffs would mesh well with the wrestling system. Optionally, large spears you can use to skewer enemies and hurl them into other enemies.

[Haedrian]

Quarterstaff: Friar tuck kinda thing, can be also used to parry attacks (up to a point)
Katana: 'Samurai Sword', very similar to western swords.
Sai: Small pointy dagger-like things, oringially designed so you could disarm your opponent with them.
Net: Throw at your opponent, tangle him, and then cut him/her up to pieces
Trident: More chance of skewering something useful...
Kusarigama: Coolness...
-
Perhaps some improvised weapons for peasants?
Syctes, sickles, hammers ect...

[Savok]

Let's not, though, make this into the kind of game with sixty different weapons, only three or four of which are used much at all.

[hactar1]

• Zweihander - a gigantic sword (about 6-7 feet long) wielded with two hands.  The hilt has room to hold the sword with the hands wide apart (for more power), and a broad crossguard.  Past the crossguard is a grippable ricasso for even more leverage, a second smaller crossguard, and a long blade, often serrated with a wavy pattern.  It was powerful with great range, but slow and cumbersome to attack.  They were employed by front-line foot soldiers against pike formations as well as cavalry, due to their increased range and ability to knock polearms aside and penetrate a formation.
  
• Bolas - a collection of weighted objects (usually 3) tied to cords, about 3 feet long each, tied together at the other end.  When whirled around and thrown, the weights spread apart, presenting a large projectile.  The cords wrap around anything the bolas hits, and the weights strike the target.  It was originally used to catch llamas and similar long-legged animals by entangling their legs, but it has been adapted to catch and stun birds in flight when thrown into a flock.
  
• Atlatl/woomera - A very ancient spear-throwing stick used by human hunters since prehistoric times.   It is about the length of one's forearm, with a hook on the end to catch the end of a throwing spear or javelin.  The atlatl is held parallel to the spear, and snapped forward with the wrist as the spear is thrown.  This adds greatly to the leverage and power of the throw.  While a bow and arrow allows for lighter projectiles to be carried and used at a greater range, throwing spears are also useful as melee weapons and can be thrown effectively by hand if the atlatl is lost.  An atlatl-launched spear powerful enough to injure the largest of game... even elephants!  
  
• Rondel - A stiff dagger used as a thrusting weapon against armored opponents.  It was often employed in battle after a heavily-armored knight had been wrestled to the ground, to penetrate between armor plates.  The stiletto had similar uses against chainmail, being slender enough to pass through the chain rings unhindered.
  
• Caltrops - Small spiked weapons fashioned in such a way (usually in a tetrahedron) that at least one spike will be facing up in any orientation.  They are thrown en masse on the ground to discourage passage.  They are particularly effective against horses, damaging their hooves.
  
• Sword Breaker - A sturdy dagger with slots like a rake cut into one edge.  When used in the off hand, it could catch an opponent's blade and either snap it or disarm him.
  
• Polearms - Any number of polearms exists, like halberds, glaives, lochaber axes, bardiches, partisans, voulges, billhooks, guisarmes, etc., which feature combinations of chopping, thrusting, hooking, or smashing parts.  Mix and match; put something nasty on the end of a pole and even an idiot can do some damage with it.  Well trained soldiers were deadly with them, although they could not be used well in formation for much more than thrusting.  Probably the simplest was the pike, a thrusting blade on the end of as long a pole as was practical.  Pikes were probably the most common and effective military weapon for both infantry and cavalry (as the mostly equivalent lance) from antiquity up until the adoption of firearms.
  

[Savok]

quote:<STRONG>Originally posted by hactar1:
An atlatl-launched spear powerful enough to injure the largest of game... even elephants!   </STRONG>

Even the balrog-sized superelephants we have?

[Lightning4]

quote:Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>How about a morning star? These are similiar to maces, but the ball of the mace is connected to the handle by a chain, like this fella.  This basically increases the damage you can do, and maybe you could have the option of "winding up", or spinning the thing around to do some extra damage.  Of course it probably wouldn't take you a whole turn, just some extra time to get it spinning.  (There could also be a small chance to have a "critical failure" where you accidentaly smack yourself with it, particularly if you don't have much skill.  Or not.)  Some even have two or three balls. Ouch.
An awesome variant (once temperature and fire is fleshed out a bit) would be a very lightweight morningstar or rope with a small pouch at the end...which you lit on fire.  That would require a lot of practice, but would be absolutely terrifying.  Or just keep it simple with torches, flaming arrows, and the like.

Also, I think it would make sense when looking at the weapon for it to say "menaces with spikes of {metal}" on spiky weapons, and this would indicate if the mace or morningstar had just a heavy rounded ball at the end, or had spikes that did extra damage/gore damage.  And, of course, menaced.        :mad:
</STRONG>

Morning stars are already in the game, though I don't think they're really differentiated from other maces, and use the same skill. I even think fortress mode dwarves can equip them, and would be semi-useful since the all of the ones I've found are of the iron variety... seem to come from goblin siege so I assume random goblin mace-wielders have them.

[ August 14, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
<STRONG>Let's not, though, make this into the kind of game with sixty different weapons, only three or four of which are used much at all.</STRONG>

Well thats the thing. We can include zweihanders, claymores, greatswords and what have you. They all count as greatsword variants. Each would work slightly differently because of its shape and balance.

Right now cultures are wholly dependant on race. Ie we have one setting for racial stats and it affects the whole of humanity or dwarfdom. If we could add sub-cultures like plainsman/mountain people and such. We could give each culture a distinct flavour.

And of course, they would use different weapons, which would be important if you ever fight against or beside them. So its not really 60+ different weapons, just 20 weapons and 80 flavours. And they all taste good!  

Im pretty sure a morningstar is just a heavily spiked (not studded) mace. I have seen it used in reference to the ball and chain sort of weapons but i keep hearing thats wrong.

TO keep this simple we need to lump all the weapons and variants into as few categories as possible:
1. Fist/"unarmed": This includes claws/katars/reinforced gauntlets and armour spikes.
2. Stabbing swords: These are swords designed for thrusting attacks against various levels of armour.
3. Slashing swords: Lots of variants here.
4. Crushing: I guess we can lump ALL the maces and hammers into this category. Stuff like chains and spikes are variants.
5. Axes: These come in all shapes and sizes, but at the end of the day, its still just an ax.
6. Parrying: The swordbreaker is a good example for this. I suppose the quarterstaff would also fit in here.
7. Spear: Any pole weapon with a sharp point on it. Tridents and such count as spears.
8. Polearm: Anything with a pole that doesnt count as a spear pretty much. Most have an ax blade of some sort.
9. Whips: Whips, spiked chains, kusari-gama, all fit into this category.
10. Thrown: Throwing axes/hammers, bolas, atlatl ect. Any missile weapon that relies on the wielder as a power source fits in here. A crossbow in comparison does all the work, even though you have to pull the string back.

10 categories might seem like a lot, but from there on its just variants.

Adding a few of my own:
Estoc: An estoc takes the shape of a longsword. Instead of a blade, the handle is attached to a large solid spike, usually with a diamond cross-section. Because its so solid you can parry other weapons with little chance of it breaking. The intended use was for stabbing attacks against heavily armoured enemies. You can also use it in the same fashion as a mace.
Bladed spear: This is what you get if you take a spear and hammer the tip flat into a sword blade. Ive seen this a couple times both in fiction and historical stuff but i dont know if it has a specific name. In general the shaft was shorter so you could still use it to slash and cut as well as stab.
Boar spear: This spear has a crossbar and a very wide triangle shaped flat blade. It is intended for hunting primarily, otherwise the crossbar would tend to get in the way. Unlike the other spears this spear has a hard time getting stuck.
Crossbow bayonets: Because we can, and because its awesome!   This would replace the usual stock bash attack. Less chance of damaging it this way.
Throwing hammers: A finely balanced hammer shaped piece of rock, possibly with a wood handle. These are simply to make and you can throw them farther and harder compared to a piece of rubble you find on the ground.
Throwing Axe: Same thing, with a chopping blade. Can be made entirely out of stone if needed.
Throwing dagger: These would have to be made of metal but who would use them? Im sure it would be a favorite of assassin types.

[ August 14, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Telltolin]

We need proper use of daggers, I say.

Also, if any non european weapons are added into the vanilla game I'll be pissed, I don't like genres crossing, thank you.  

[Tamren]

Yeah, id rather not pollute the game with dual katana wielding ninjas and stuff like that. The really exotic stuff we can do without.

We gotta be careful not to let the DnD stuff creep in too. Like the dire-double axes. Oh yeah, this crossbow is "primitive" because it shoots icicles instead of bolts! We call it an icehucker!". Seriously, what crackheads come up with that stuff o_O.

Stuff like the atlatl is fine though. Its a more "primitive" weapon compared to the broadsword, but it did exist in the same time period as a hunting weapon.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

What I would like is freedom to mod weapons anyway we like.
So that we can choose what weapons are there.
Oriental stuff is good in tiny (real tiny) proportions, but we don't need thousands of names for the same weapon.
We should be able to choose rarity of weapons more precise.
Like you should see long swords more often than Vettukathi or Scramasax...

[Cosmonot]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>Yeah, id rather not pollute the game with dual katana wielding ninjas and stuff like that. The really exotic stuff we can do without.

We gotta be careful not to let the DnD stuff creep in too. Like the dire-double axes. Oh yeah, this crossbow is "primitive" because it shoots icicles instead of bolts! We call it an icehucker!". Seriously, what crackheads come up with that stuff o_O.

Stuff like the atlatl is fine though. Its a more "primitive" weapon compared to the broadsword, but it did exist in the same time period as a hunting weapon.</STRONG>

I think you'll find that while many people will agree that exotic weapons should be left out, few people will agree on which weapons are exotic. This is a fantasy game, after all.

I can see two ways this could develop:

1. The game continues to use generic weapons. No one is happy, because they don't have their parrying dagger, dual uchi-gatanas, zweihander, atlatl or double axe, but they're not pissed off because they find a guy using a katar, bladed spear, triple-headed military flail, or crossbow bayonet either.

2. Each civilization or region begins to use randomly generated regional weapon sets that fit a theme. For example:
Civ A uses arming swords, zweihanders, boar spears, and longbows.
Civ B uses uchi-gatanas, no-daichis, kama-yari, and yumi.
Civ C uses swordchucks, double axes, battle fans, and those really sharp metal playing cards that are balanced for throwing.

Players can see what kinds of weapons a civ uses when they create their characters in Adventure mode, and can specify what type of weapons are used in init.txt and item_weapon.txt, so they never have to deal with weird weapons if they don't want to.

[Greiger]

I like Greatswords and claws (I actually modded them in, but the Greatsword is basically just a heavier, more damage dealing two-handed sword, and for the claws I can't seem to find the skill tag to make them use wrestling skill)  I would also kinda like the idea of katanas, but they would likely be very rare/hard to make, after all it seems to me that it's generating an entire(okay half) world not just one little slice.  Now if we started getting very specific things like a buster sword, or swordchucks I would get a little worried.

Of course I'm all for giant mechas.   (joking, please don't hurt me)

P.S. sorry I like 8-bit theatre as much as anyone else but swordchucks in Dwarf fortress would be a bit odd