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Poll

How important is writing to you?

I'd like to become a professional writer in the next decade.
- 7 (29.2%)
Less than videogames.
- 6 (25%)
I am a professional writer.
- 3 (12.5%)
More than my health.
- 2 (8.3%)
I'm not sure.
- 5 (20.8%)
More than videogames.
- 0 (0%)
Not at all.
- 1 (4.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: April 23, 2012, 11:42:36 pm


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Author Topic: Bay12 Writers Guild  (Read 58911 times)

Vector

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #180 on: September 24, 2010, 02:57:16 am »

Vector ... I like that a lot.

It is interesting that you can present things on a very simple factual basis, but with the structure / development / choice of words it can still appear somewhat poetic.

highlights (for me):
'large and square and American'
'the white arrows still offer direction'

Probably because they suggest a different meaning in addition to the purely factual one.

Hey, thanks so much!  That was exactly the effect I was going for--I was trying to see how much "phantom-information" I could hide under a factual description.  I'll treasure your comments =)
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Aqizzar

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #181 on: September 24, 2010, 04:08:48 am »

Since I asked to see it, I should comment.  The first thing I think to say is, it's not what I would write.  That seems like an egotistical thing to say, but what caught my eye was the repeated words without significantly repeated structure, which is something that just sticks in my craw for some reason.  And yeah, the word choice and mechanical descriptions paint a nice scene, but that's what it felt like to me - a scene, like from a stage-plan.  I'm probably just too picky; my own writing turns into overwrought drivel in a matter of sentences, even when I'm not trying to.

I guess the important thing is that the style achieved the effect you wanted, which is the whole point of a writing style.  There's only so much to say about a few lines, but it stands on its own for what it is.
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Vector

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #182 on: September 24, 2010, 12:17:28 pm »

The first thing I think to say is, it's not what I would write.  That seems like an egotistical thing to say, but what caught my eye was the repeated words without significantly repeated structure, which is something that just sticks in my craw for some reason.  And yeah, the word choice and mechanical descriptions paint a nice scene, but that's what it felt like to me - a scene, like from a stage-plan.  I'm probably just too picky; my own writing turns into overwrought drivel in a matter of sentences, even when I'm not trying to.

I guess the important thing is that the style achieved the effect you wanted, which is the whole point of a writing style.  There's only so much to say about a few lines, but it stands on its own for what it is.

Sorry, man, but... that was the assignment.  I don't normally write like this, either =/  In this case, "success" was being able to take a mechanical description and make it pejorative or positive.  "Failure" was inserting one's own biases into the writing clearly--i.e., making oneself the speaking character.

For example, the reason why Smiling Girl looked up was because I was leaning on the railing above her, staring down.  It might've been more interesting to provide the contrast between myself and her, just as the new cars are contrasted with the dilapidated lot--but no, I wasn't allowed to.  Similarly, I would've loved to have gone on a big long rant about how we maintain our personal property and worry about how we appear as individuals but don't want to fork out the cash to keep the community college parking lot maintained.  Would've loved to rant more about how the stars have gone out and the wind doesn't smell like trees anymore.  Or distort the girl's appearance a bit more, because she scared the crap out of me and I would've loved to have extended the experience to the audience.  Seriously, who goes grinning down the street like that?

But no.  No angry liberal rants.  Just had to hint at what I, personally saw via restriction of imagery and so on.

Well, anyway.  Hope to post something that pleases both of us more in the future ^_^;;
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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bjlong

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #183 on: September 24, 2010, 06:55:58 pm »

It has been forever and a day since I posted here. SO! I post critiques tomorrow. They may be shorter than normal.
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Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #184 on: September 25, 2010, 02:04:15 am »

^Same here.
Been busy like hell, and not the least with this thing, which took me about 6 hours (including breaks) yesterday. So I won't have anything to show for the prompt in the near future.

Now, Vector. First, same as mendonca has said. I like it very much for being factual but managing to have a structure/development, although at the poetic choice of words I was somewhat confused, because they appeared to me to bear some opinion.

Second. On the whole idea. I can see why it would be an interesting experiment for a writer. But I don't exactly see what value it may have for actual writing that (s)he could show for her/himself. One of the most important parts of stories is the writer's opinion. It's one of the things that keeps us with the narrative after we've already read the story. And, actually, it's one of the things that keeps us in the narrative while we're reading. Emotion that keeps our brains interested. And a writer that chooses a factual approach for his/her story, especially if it's a longer one, steps on an extremely slippery slope. Also, on the matter of length. It's a nice thing with prompts that length doesn't matter, but could you or anyone here write something more weighty, a story of 1000-2000 words, in a factual manner, so that we could evaluate whether a factual story is a real thing, or a myth. Hopefully, I'll give it a go myself sometime.

Also, Aqizzar has sunglasses and to write something for this thread because I don't believe him. :P
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Vector

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #185 on: September 25, 2010, 02:28:21 am »

Second. On the whole idea. I can see why it would be an interesting experiment for a writer. But I don't exactly see what value it may have for actual writing that (s)he could show for her/himself. One of the most important parts of stories is the writer's opinion. It's one of the things that keeps us with the narrative after we've already read the story. And, actually, it's one of the things that keeps us in the narrative while we're reading. Emotion that keeps our brains interested. And a writer that chooses a factual approach for his/her story, especially if it's a longer one, steps on an extremely slippery slope. Also, on the matter of length. It's a nice thing with prompts that length doesn't matter, but could you or anyone here write something more weighty, a story of 1000-2000 words, in a factual manner, so that we could evaluate whether a factual story is a real thing, or a myth. Hopefully, I'll give it a go myself sometime.

The general purpose, as far as I can tell, is to gain control over one's own voice.  That way, you can figure out what part of your writing is the character, and what part of it is you; you can also discover exactly how much of your own self-inserted descriptors are unnecessary to follow the action.  Furthermore, it helps unearth your biases, so that you gain a better sense of which agendas you're pushing, how, and where.

So, I'm not suggesting that people write a giant story.  I'm just suggesting that they try to write a 500-word or so scene from what they find around them, in an exercise in describing without interpreting.  I personally found that the benefit to the rest of my voiced writing was substantial.

PS:
Quote from: Wikipedia
The third-person objective is preferred in most pieces that are deliberately trying to take a neutral or unbiased view, like in many newspaper articles. It is also called the third-person dramatic, because the narrator (like the audience of a drama) is neutral and ineffective toward the progression of the plot — merely an uninvolved onlooker. It was also used around the mid-twentieth century by French novelists writing in the nouveau roman tradition.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #186 on: September 25, 2010, 02:38:50 am »

Objection withdrawn. It's probably just me who's bad at third-person objective, because no one remembers Othor II where I tried to do it, and boy that was hard. And I don't need to say that I failed. Actually, that gives me an idea, but utilizing it would be cheating, as far as I understand the prompt.
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bjlong

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #187 on: September 25, 2010, 01:27:01 pm »

Spoiler: 4 (!) viewpoints (click to show/hide)

This is a good prompt piece--you let me know what each character is thinking right away, and develop their view competently. You do use some dramatic irony in here in a way that could be described as "droll." However, there are a couple of problems with the work:

First, the diction is relatively even throughout. This might work with the first two characters, but with the second two something should really change. Second, there's no break or arc to the flow of this piece, which makes it more of a grind to read through than it should be. Try varying your sentence structure, or use some unexpected metaphors. Finally, and this is more of an irk than a major flaw to a prompt post, there's no interconnecting story, no driving arc that gives us a setup, climax, and resolution. For me, that makes the piece a lot more difficult to get through.

However, I do find it interesting how you managed to make disparate circumstances and speakers all fit a single mood. All in all, a definitely interesting experiment. I'd be careful switching rapidly between viewpoints on your future projects, though--you seem to need more practice here.

Spoiler: Peace and War (click to show/hide)

This is a good prompt post. You were able to pull off a significant amount of dramatic irony and a good arc through the piece. You definitely had a few interesting moments as well.

However, this piece is not without problems: First, the government is definitely too obviously 'teh evulz'. This would have been ok, but then you switched to the guard's perspective, which gave you the perfect chance to point out the government's side of this equation. However, you just say that the government is bad again. This gives us the impression that the only one satisfied with the government is the government, and even in Nazi Germany at the end of WWII, this was far from true. Second, you use loaded terms where I'm pretty sure you don't mean to: ie, dirty revolutionary. Be very, very careful in political stories that you don't tap into something that you don't want to tap into. I'd recommend a closer reading of this piece to try to pick out these terms. Thirdly, I don't see how Jonal's final actions follow from what he knows, and who his character is. That's obviously a picture from one of the three guards, and he's clearly OK with killing anyone associated with the government, so why should he consider handing off this picture to some government dog's family?

The thing that I can't decide is brilliant or not is the fact that this doesn't feel like the future--more like some sort of 80's military resistance novel. Everyone feels dirty, and the machines are just props for the human drama. On the other hand, it seems like there have been significant changes in the world that we should be picking up on, but it's not there for us to see. I'm not sure, so I'll leave that for you to decide.

Spoiler: "Vylena's End" (click to show/hide)

This is an ok post. You do use an arc to drive your characters through the story, and you definitely have an interesting bit of history behind your story.

However: The first and biggest problem I have is that I'm thrown into a world where so much is different, then juggled around before I can start getting a comprehensive picture. In general, the more that a world is different from our own, the more time you'll need to get the world across to your audience. I get that there's a war, and it's pseudo-fantasy? Steampunk? I'm not actually sure. I can tell there's stuff behind the world, just not what that stuff is. Secondly, you swing me from one side to the other, and yet don't provide enough clues to tell me where I am. This is a big problem, as I end up confused for a bit into your prose, and you don't want your readers confused. Thirdly, you have a huge context problem--what does it matter to me if some somethings die? You have to first humanize these characters before we start caring about them.

However, I do want to praise the ending. What I got out of it was that the defending side had stolen a city. This is amazing, definitely one of those sensawunder moments that SF literary people bemoan dying. Good job working this in.

Why make something if nothing endures? -
You can lose everything in an instant.
They say “Aren’t the moments of brightness,
And the goodness born by your doing
Worth it?"

They just lie, and may be unknowing.
They just offer a consolation
To have something to keep us from thinking
Of our place on this pointless journey.

But I want no consolation,
No more hide’n’seek playing with Reason.
The truth!

OK, so I still don't like this poem. But you've definitely improved--the meter is consistent, it scans alright, and you have a good arc going... hrm. This will be hard, so let me just go with a line-by-line analysis.
1: An excellent opener. You hit a chord that resonates with a lot of people, and suggest you have some interesting thoughts about it.
2: This squanders all the drama you just built up by being trite. I get the feeling that you felt like you needed another line in there and put this one down without any good reason for it.
3-5: An excellent bit of quotation, thought "born by your doing" is clunky. You could have set it up a bit better with line 2.
6: This has a couple flaws. "Just" doesn't mean anything here, and your scansion would be better without it. "And may be unknowing" is both clunky and covers old ground uninterestingly.
7: "Just" doesn't mean anything again, but this is otherwise a good line.
8-9: This is decent, but I wouldn't leave it untouched. There might be a snappier way to put line 8.
10: A good setup for the rest of the stanza.
11: Excellent building here...
12: Urrk! This is less like a cliff hanger, and more like someone shot the writer! You have a good head of steam built up, so feel free to make some leaps here, and then close it off with a parting thought. As it is now, this end doesn't work.

Since I've lambasted two of your poems, here's one of mine to rip into:

Spoiler: A Poem! Rip into it. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is actually really difficult for me to judge. Usually I come at prompts as a reader first, and a writer second, but this is so clearly a writing drill that reader-me completely shuts down. Should I judge this as a writer or a reader, then?

Here are some things that made reader-me shut down: First, the prose is relatively uniform. You might say that this is part of the prompt, but there are plenty of ways to make the prose less uniform without inserting an opinionated voice. Varying the sentence structure and length, for instance, would be one way. Varying verbs would help a lot too. (You have "has rendered" as the verb in two sentences side-by-side.) And rolling unnecessary sentences into more active sentences would make the prose snap more (Ie, get rid of sentences like "Its lights flash from side to side, red to blue and back again." by inserting text in the previous sentence). Secondly, and relatedly, there is no motion in this piece until the very end. Thing just sit there, for the most part, and the narrative voice describes in splotches instead of, say, panning across the scene, or starting far away and moving in. And thirdly, your prose somehow reads in a slow, lulling development, with few surprises, which may be part of the writing prompt.

Things which make the writer-me get going: You've definitely captured the type of Hemingway here, though in a slowed-down form. Perhaps because of this, I'm suddenly looking for symbolism, treating this as a text to be analyzed rather than a prompt to read. You capture the feeling of a still night, looking out on the surroundings, if not in a way that punches the reader in the teeth with "READ ME" vibes. This would be an excellent start to, say, a break-scene between action scenes. In short, there's definitely some wordcrafting skillz here.

With that, I finish all the prompts. Hopefully the abbreviated form didn't offend anyone.
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Vector

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #188 on: September 25, 2010, 01:52:09 pm »

This is actually really difficult for me to judge. Usually I come at prompts as a reader first, and a writer second, but this is so clearly a writing drill that reader-me completely shuts down. Should I judge this as a writer or a reader, then?

Here are some things that made reader-me shut down: First, the prose is relatively uniform. You might say that this is part of the prompt, but there are plenty of ways to make the prose less uniform without inserting an opinionated voice. Varying the sentence structure and length, for instance, would be one way. Varying verbs would help a lot too. (You have "has rendered" as the verb in two sentences side-by-side.) And rolling unnecessary sentences into more active sentences would make the prose snap more (Ie, get rid of sentences like "Its lights flash from side to side, red to blue and back again." by inserting text in the previous sentence). Secondly, and relatedly, there is no motion in this piece until the very end. Thing just sit there, for the most part, and the narrative voice describes in splotches instead of, say, panning across the scene, or starting far away and moving in. And thirdly, your prose somehow reads in a slow, lulling development, with few surprises, which may be part of the writing prompt.

Things which make the writer-me get going: You've definitely captured the type of Hemingway here, though in a slowed-down form. Perhaps because of this, I'm suddenly looking for symbolism, treating this as a text to be analyzed rather than a prompt to read. You capture the feeling of a still night, looking out on the surroundings, if not in a way that punches the reader in the teeth with "READ ME" vibes. This would be an excellent start to, say, a break-scene between action scenes. In short, there's definitely some wordcrafting skillz here.

Hmmm, thank you for the careful review!  Unfortunately, much of what I could do here was controlled by the fact that I was looking out on a parking lot at night, saw an airplane passing overhead, and then saw a girl walking in front of me.  Not the most exciting scene, so I did what I could.  I also went with splotches of theme, in a way--the entire structure was formed more by the progression of ideas than of any camera usage, but I'll have to keep that in mind until next time.

Also, the double-rendered was intentional--it tied the absence of the stars and the muting of sound together in a more resonant way.  Trust me, it sounds worse with different verbs.  Well, different verbs from what I could choose from, anyway, since everything becomes a mess when one has no figures of speech.

But yeah, I'm definitely going to keep your advice for emotional engagement on the part of the reader.  Time for more condensation efforts!
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #189 on: September 26, 2010, 05:14:13 am »

Second, there's no break or arc to the flow of this piece, which makes it more of a grind to read through than it should be. Try varying your sentence structure, or use some unexpected metaphors. Finally, and this is more of an irk than a major flaw to a prompt post, there's no interconnecting story, no driving arc that gives us a setup, climax, and resolution. For me, that makes the piece a lot more difficult to get through.
Yup, no arc. I guess you can't ask for as much speculation on your prompt as on art-house movies. Also, had I been given a week to think up, write, edit and rewrite it, maybe I could state my idea clearer. With the rush of prompt I'm just left with an idea half-baked and never to be realised to its full potential. Thank you, Fishbreath.

Spoiler: A Poem! Rip into it. (click to show/hide)
I don't know what to make of your poem, bjlong, and first because I have no idea what Raleigh is, especially when it's apparently set on the same scale as England and America. Also, I'm not really good with symbolism, metaphor etc. I guess, everyone has their own place for bitterness.

However, excellent critique, and it was interesting to see how radically our views differed in some places (and they differed on every piece).


Ah, I should, probably, elaborate.

I didn't find any difficulty with getting into Vylena's End. Exact implementations didn't matter, the approximate looks of the machines were in my head, I guess from all the sci-fi I've read and seen. Of maybe when you're a fan of sci-fi and fantasy, you accept these things easier. Krelos' descriptions were vivid to just right extent for me.

Well, Vector's piece may be splotchy, but for me it worked perfectly to visualise the scene, and my eyes followed where hers went without any difficulty. I remembered a place like that from around me, all the descriptions clicked spot on, and even the plane - there's an airport near that place.
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Supermikhail

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Another rhymeless poem? >:-[
« Reply #190 on: September 27, 2010, 12:08:33 pm »

I have no point in life
No pivot
On which to turn myself

Sometimes I think I’ve found it
And follow
It turns out an illusion

Those who I love stop living
Or change
(I do not know what’s worse)

My works turn obsolete
And I am
Left in a void of meaning
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bjlong

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #191 on: September 28, 2010, 06:48:13 pm »

Hmmm, thank you for the careful review!  Unfortunately, much of what I could do here was controlled by the fact that I was looking out on a parking lot at night, saw an airplane passing overhead, and then saw a girl walking in front of me.  Not the most exciting scene, so I did what I could.  I also went with splotches of theme, in a way--the entire structure was formed more by the progression of ideas than of any camera usage, but I'll have to keep that in mind until next time.

Also, the double-rendered was intentional--it tied the absence of the stars and the muting of sound together in a more resonant way.  Trust me, it sounds worse with different verbs.  Well, different verbs from what I could choose from, anyway, since everything becomes a mess when one has no figures of speech.

But yeah, I'm definitely going to keep your advice for emotional engagement on the part of the reader.  Time for more condensation efforts!

^_^ Glad to help! Just remember, all reviews come with a big IMO attached to the front--if you figure out that I'm being unreasonable, or a way to satisfy me without following my suggestions, or you just don't like my face, feel free to throw my opinion out the window.

Yup, no arc. (...)

I don't know what to make of your poem, bjlong, and first because I have no idea what Raleigh is, especially when it's apparently set on the same scale as England and America. Also, I'm not really good with symbolism, metaphor etc. I guess, everyone has their own place for bitterness.

However, excellent critique, and it was interesting to see how radically our views differed in some places (and they differed on every piece).


Ah, I should, probably, elaborate.

I didn't find any difficulty with getting into Vylena's End. Exact implementations didn't matter, the approximate looks of the machines were in my head, I guess from all the sci-fi I've read and seen. Of maybe when you're a fan of sci-fi and fantasy, you accept these things easier. Krelos' descriptions were vivid to just right extent for me.

Well, Vector's piece may be splotchy, but for me it worked perfectly to visualise the scene, and my eyes followed where hers went without any difficulty. I remembered a place like that from around me, all the descriptions clicked spot on, and even the plane - there's an airport near that place.

The lack of an arc is fine--not something I'd lambast you on a prompt piece for, but it's good to keep that in mind whenever you're writing. You can end up with a climax you weren't expecting, that way.

Raleigh is a city in North Carolina. Which is in the southern US. It was meant to mirror the Nazareth at the beginning. Hopefully that helps.

As for the critiques, I should probably mention that I come at these things from Poe's perspective--the only thing that matters is the effect, emotional or rational, on the reader. While structure can be helpful for creating entertaining word choice, or forcing the reader to interpret things in a certain context, it comes only as a tool for forcing the reader to feel or think about this story in a certain way. As such, if people tragically die, then the reader must feel sorrow--if someone argues, the logic must be sound and the reader must become rationally engaged.

As for the poem, I won't have a chance to critique it for some time, but I'm not going to let that stop me from posting. Let me just say that you're getting better!
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Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #192 on: September 29, 2010, 09:13:17 am »

Just to be clear, my "Yup, no arc" contained irony, and naturally, I'm going to insist until there's an adventure movie "Poe's Code", that my story has got an arc. By the way, I've got a strange interest in maybe going back and editing my prompt submissions some time, as having written a thing for "The Stories" thread (apparently suffering from tl;dr), and having edited it, I've begun to feel, that my stories may be pretty good not only in concept, but in execution, too, in that a rewrite can be based on them quite heavily.

Quick edit: Thanks for your impressions on my last poem, even though they are contained in one sentence. But it ends with an exclamation mark!

Also, I assume it'd be a bit early to talk about an epic poem?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 10:14:29 am by Supermikhail »
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mendonca

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #193 on: September 30, 2010, 10:00:22 am »

Also, I assume it'd be a bit early to talk about an epic poem?

Do it. You know you want to.
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Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #194 on: September 30, 2010, 12:45:48 pm »

You bet. I had a fellow student tell me today that I consider myself more clever than anyone else. I was kind of shocked, then I think I managed to convince her, or at least everyone around her, that being a literary person I, by necessity, value everybody else's thoughts very much. That was a pretty interesting realization for myself, too.

Just in case, ^that was about my self-esteem.

More seriously about the epic poem. I'm not sure what I had in mind in my previous post, now I can only think of Othor II that's already suffered a lot, and I just wonder if anyone else here thinks that it'd be a risky thing to bring up again, even if in a properly outlined shape. And with all the experience I've gained since then, particularly through this thread. In case anyone gets interested enough to check out what the hell is Othor II, here are two links - 1) original, 2) my attempt at turning it into a game. Also, mendonca may remember my ScriptFrenzy submission that's related.
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