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Poll

How important is writing to you?

I'd like to become a professional writer in the next decade.
- 7 (29.2%)
Less than videogames.
- 6 (25%)
I am a professional writer.
- 3 (12.5%)
More than my health.
- 2 (8.3%)
I'm not sure.
- 5 (20.8%)
More than videogames.
- 0 (0%)
Not at all.
- 1 (4.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: April 23, 2012, 11:42:36 pm


Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 38

Author Topic: Bay12 Writers Guild  (Read 58857 times)

WhiskerMeister

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2010, 07:59:13 pm »

my story which i thought was pretty great is not getting so many replies so i humbly seek the advice of the writers guild
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Fishbreath

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #91 on: September 03, 2010, 01:00:04 am »

Well, Fishbreath, you've prompted me to finally read through all of the current Many Words, and I've come up with a new bunch of harsh critique.

Always welcome.

Quote from: Supermikhail
But first, a positive moment! The new chapter, and finally action! Also, I totally relished the description of the draug. I'd wanted to find out what it was for so long. On that suspense I can commend you. Now...

It gets better. There's something big that'll happen in all three of the current chapters by December.

Quote from: Supermikhail
To start mild - watch out your dialogue tags. In Unhappy Circumstances you use "he allowed". I simply froze in disbelief when I read up to that place. Big no. The fewer times you use anything but "said", the better, and I've been slowly developing an opinion that one should strive to do without dialogue tags at all. Kind of perfection of dialogue. Call me crazy.

Maybe I will. I'd call it a difference in style—certainly I would say that an overuse of dialog tags is an issue, and at the start of Three Arrivals I was using about half 'said' and 'asked' and half fancier ones, which isn't a good balance. On the other hand, an underuse of fancy dialog tags isn't a particularly good thing, either, in my opinion. There's only so much nuance you (or maybe just me :P) can create with 'said' and adverbs, and if you're careful about using non-standard dialog tags, they have a much greater impact on the reader.

Quote from: Supermikhail
A larger problem. Maybe I just read it too fast, but the characters don't seem to me to tick as unique. Like, the dialogue is spoken by one person. I can't pin it down, I can only guess that it's possible that you don't quite get into the heads of your characters. Or maybe you need to work on your dialogue. I feel you characters could use... more different characters.

I accept this as true. As the front page says, Many Words is partly a place to improve myself, and characterization is one of those fronts on which I could use some work. I think it gets better in the stuff that's going up now, but I am largely incapable of judging my own writing on the merits, so I'll let you decide in the coming months.

EDIT: while brushing my teeth I realize that there's another facet to this problem: at the moment, my characters don't really talk distinctively. In fact, they mostly talk like me, with a few minor differences each. This is a problem. I comment on pacing below; I think that what I'll do is designate Eirik's next chapter as a place to work on that, and the next chapter for the other two as a place to work on more distinct dialog.

Quote from: Supermikhail
It occurred to me when I read about Eirik trying to explain to the mariners his spirit sight. Basically, this sight, this magic, is something that a lot of his friends have, that a bunch of people in this world can do. It seems like every corner has a wizard guild, and every person has a spell book. So, why are we interested in these people, Anja, Rakel and Eirik? Well, Anja seems sort of mildly unusual, although Eirik goes around resurrecting girls like her all the time, and the council has seen magic more powerful than hers. Eirik - is your average mage, it appears as if he's in this story just to provide background, explain the mechanics of this world to the reader. Rakel - is simply a capricious witch. I read to the end of Three Arrivals and couldn't understand why they were chosen as protagonists, and not any other commoner. So, my guess is, you cut the chapter a little too early, because the first chapter should show the reader why he should care. Or you need to tweak the pacing.

Pacing is another thing I need to work on, and actually this is a terrible format for it. I find myself worried that things are going to be too short when in actuality they're too long, and then things I wanted to fit into a chapter get pushed back to the next one, and it ends up reading very slowly, and so on and so forth. If I wrote chapter-by-chapter instead of entry-by-entry it would probably be better, but the problem there is that I'd need a much bigger buffer to do that—I'd need to be a full chapter ahead on all of them, and that's more than I'm ahead even now.

The other part of this comment is mostly poor explanation on my part—it may look like mages are common (since all three are viewpoint characters), but in actuality there are a few thousand out of a population of more than a million. I'll keep mum on Eirik, since we'll find out a lot more about him and Anja in the next few weeks, and remark that I am delighted that you think that about Rakel—caprice is one of her defining characteristics (I might try and use a nicer word, but I'm also biased).

Quote from: Supermikhail
Then, in some places names seem to be intriguingly long. Would you consider translating what they mean in a footnote? I feel like I'm missing out on some word play (or you're trying to hypnotize me with magical letter combinations 8)).

Which ones do you want to know? I don't know if I'll translate them in the text, since fiction that comes with a glossary is kind of irritating to me, but I'd be glad to tell you here.

Quote from: Supermikhail
Another little note. Somewhere on the ship, we've met two characters whose names start with "E" (three names, if I recall correctly, Eirik E-something and Captain Eriksson or something). It's a bad practice, because it confuses the reader.

Yeah, I know. Eskilsson and Eriksson and Eirik are all way too similar, but I was absolutely unable to resist naming the mariner in the Norse-inspired world 'Leif Eriksson'. Call it a personal failing. :P
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:12:43 am by Fishbreath »
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Willfor

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #92 on: September 03, 2010, 02:04:39 am »

It appears that it's really much easier to write good short stories than good long genre. Part of the problem must lie in wrapping your head around the plot, and rewrites are much easier. Also, practicing in the genre with novels must be a killer. So, I take my hat off to Fishbreath and Willfor, for their determination.

As to wrapping my head around the plot, it tends to be more difficult in terms of the things I like to write. I like complexity, and I like writing casts of characters. Character dynamic is something I really enjoy trying to capture. I like building things up, and then layering them. Most of the things I start die in infancy because I realise 100-1000 words into it that I don't care enough about it to outline it, figure out how all the characters relate, and work their motivations in.

My current project (it's lasted this long without me abandoning it, it seems like a keeper) has roughly 44 named characters with motivations at the moment, but only about 16 of them will really get fleshed out to the reader. But my knowledge of their motivations allows me to see into the situations that are going to come up, and are going to greatly help when I revise my outline. (Fun fact: I had an outline all done for it, but since I hadn't taken into account the antagonists' motivations it fell apart)


Another note: Dialogue has everything to do with mimicking the speech patterns of the kind of person you want to portray:

"And he like, totally had that coming. I phoned Jennifer, and she said it was like, he didn't care, but then I phoned Carla, and she was like 'bitch, please, you couldn't hold a guy worth shit.' Bitch."

"Uh . . . Okay? I don't think I even asked about any of that. At all."

Even if I were to continue their dialogue, I wouldn't need to tag them. They are distinct from each other. Also, punctuation is every bit as crucial to dialogue as the words are. I (personal preference) like to place commas at every natural breath, and periods at ever pause. If you imagine your character having any kind of voice, just try to imagine them talking and use the speech pattern.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Vector

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2010, 02:14:51 am »

Even when you have rather disparate speech patterns, I've always thought dialogue tags were necessary to keep the dialogue solidly entrenched in context of the characters and the setting.  Your people had better be moving around significantly and using body language.  There'd better be something (or a whole lot of significant nothing) going on in the background.

So, the tags shouldn't be necessary to figure out who's speaking, but they should still be there.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2010, 03:05:40 am »

@WhiskerMeister: Looks pretty good to me, could use some capitalization. I don't know what kind of imagery you were putting into it, but I saw the story told by the Devil, cast down from Heaven.

I think you definitely need to continue, but whichever way, I warn you against staying as vague, because your story needs to be about something more or less concrete, even if it's not apparent from the start. Because otherwise it's teenage blog genre (I confess, I almost dismissed your story as such at "her beautiful face").

@Fishbreath: About dialogue tags you may be a little too positive. I view it this way, and from all the writing advice I've read on the web, I'm pretty sure many other people view it similarly - fiction - unless it's by a very popular Spanish philosopher - is written to convey images, mostly audio-visual, with a touch of smell and tactile sensations. Even if you're a philosopher, the reader doesn't consider your issues straight from the writing, but after viewing the imagery. So, the better you are able to convey images with your writing, the better your writing is. It includes the flow of the narrative, which applies to dialogue. I've read recently that when people come to quote marks, they get in a different mood. They kind of expect it, by formatting, to be easier to read. But if you put a bit dialogue tag, they have to stop and turn on their author voice mode, their narrative reading dictionary, and you don't want them to stop. Because they might as well put down the book.

Also, trying to give your writing character with characteristic dialogue tags is cheating.

By the way, on the matter of characters. It might be not exactly up your valley, but you might like to read a book called "The Man In The High Castle" by Philip Dick. I'd like to think of it as one of the best multi-character narrative pieces. Philip Dick even gives the author voice in each section a different flavor. So, it might give you inspiration.

About names, there was a city name, coming to which I wasn't sure if you were turning the story into comedy. You either need to make footnotes for such occasions, or reconsider your naming. Also, it probably wouldn't be as weird if everyone spoke Icelandic (or whatever language that is), or you wrote in it. As you write in English, you have to take into account baffled mono-lingual speakers.

Oh, while I was writing.

@Willfor: I'm disappointed, sir. Seriously, you drop something at 1000 words because you've grown bored with it? Well, maybe it's a good exercise to at least outline it? It's not a lot of work, really. I put my hat back on. >:(

You know, who has about as many characters? J. R. R. Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings. You know how many pages he has to develop them? About 600. Be warned, as you aren't going to get away with a 100-page novel (but you could practice with such your other, abandoned projects).

I absolutely agree with you on the matter of dialogue, except one point. "Like". We want dialogue to read realistic, not be realistic. That is, getting rid of all the annoying stuff. Maybe it's somewhat necessary. :)

@Vector: What Willfor said. Also, you can denote who's speaking, with action without interrupting the dialogue. Like

Bob fished a fresh bottle out of the bucket.

"And he like, totally had that coming. I phoned Jennifer, and she said it was like, he didn't care, but then I phoned Carla, and she was like 'bitch, please, you couldn't hold a guy worth shit.' Bitch."

Marika fidgeted on her seat.

"Uh . . . Okay? I don't think I even asked about any of that. At all."


Willfor has got a solid grasp on the theory, practice is lagging. How about a writing prompt? :)
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Fishbreath

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2010, 04:42:22 am »

@Supermikhail: I think that ragging on dialog tags is a bit too trendy on the internet these days. Have a look at a random piece of recent English literature, and you're likely to find 'said's wherever it's not clear which two characters are talking, and fancier bits of dialogue tagging every so often, because said-bookisms used sparingly are a good thing--if the internet has taught us anything, it should be that it's very hard to convey mood unambiguously through dialogue alone. As a writer, I would say that my task is to convert my mental images to my readers' mental images as efficiently as possible. If I have to use 'demanded' or 'allowed' or 'hedged' once or twice a page to get the mood across, then that's what I'll do; maybe it's possible to make it obvoius from dialogue, but I maintain that it's absolutely impossible to do that in every case, and I'm a cautious kind of guy.

mendonca

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2010, 05:04:03 am »

I'm in the process of reading Cormac McCarthy's 'All the pretty horses' and all dialogue is identified by a new line (I don't know if this is how he write's all his work, this is the first novel I have attempted).

No markers, no tags, a name might be dropped at the start of a dialogue exchange, but apart from that it's just new lines.

Personally I find it a struggle to fully and completely understand all the way through without re-reading certain portions of it, but the characters are generally seperable, in that I mean they are certainly rich, but not necessarily easily identifiable through all individual dialogue exchanges. Interesting style choice I suppose, but it does not help in the flow of the book.
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Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2010, 07:27:19 am »

@Fishbreath: Okay, just look through Unhappy Circumstances.

@mendonca: Yes, some identification from time to time is necessary (unless your characters speak ridiculously differently, like one in a British accent, other in a German one). But I say, only when necessary. Otherwise it's annoying, and I kind of know it from experience, because once I used to flash dialogue tags like crazy (if anyone remembers my Othor II thread) and rereading that stuff is pain.

Today I haven't discovered anything noteworthy for the Library. Sort of highlights are
Wasted, a micro story by DeadlyCairn,
Nightway, a micro story by The Mad Engineer
maybe I'm just tired, or too anxious to get back to worldbuilding (which has gradually transformed into outlining).

On a different note, I've got a thought :o I wonder if collaborative writing really works. While sifting through all these stories, some of them mediocre, some more interesting, I catch myself on an urge - that it's not that they should be just above a certain bar - I'm looking for a gem, a bestseller, something I could lose myself in. And I know that it's hard to lose yourself in a micro story. So, I wonder if something really good and really big can be written on the forums. I would imagine that it'd be done the Snowflake method (to which I put a link in Useful Links), so that at first people brainstorm the idea, then the summary, then the characters... and only later start really writing, so as not to step on each other's toes with different plot ideas.

That'd be real cool, right?
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Willfor

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2010, 09:25:37 am »

@Willfor: I'm disappointed, sir. Seriously, you drop something at 1000 words because you've grown bored with it? Well, maybe it's a good exercise to at least outline it? It's not a lot of work, really. I put my hat back on. >:(

You know, who has about as many characters? J. R. R. Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings. You know how many pages he has to develop them? About 600. Be warned, as you aren't going to get away with a 100-page novel (but you could practice with such your other, abandoned projects).

I absolutely agree with you on the matter of dialogue, except one point. "Like". We want dialogue to read realistic, not be realistic. That is, getting rid of all the annoying stuff. Maybe it's somewhat necessary. :)

Bored is not the right word. There is also the matter of my internal editor screaming that it will never sell; My inability to pull the thing cohesively together in my mind; The fact that I get ideas for a new novel every two days and if I don't kill them in their infancy they die on their own by not being as interesting as the next one. While I am working on Hera's story I am refusing all other novel-length ideas at the door just because I have finally found the one that I can convince my internal editor will sell, and I can convince my muse that it's worth spending a year on. (hopefully less, but I have other obligations in my life)

I don't want to be the next Tolkien with my characters. I want to be the next Robin Hobb with my characters. And yes, she fleshes out many more characters than I admitted to, but I am quite certain more characters are going to show up for me to have to account for. The story always grows, and I am pretty sure I am already going to have to leave a lot of it on the cutting room floor by the end.

As for practice while I'm trying to plot the novel out, I do have an idea for that. I'll be posting pieces of it here soon enough.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2010, 09:46:19 am »

You know what? NaNoWriMo. People write 50,000 words in a month. Lots of people do it, and you can, too. A month isn't long. You don't have to stifle those ideas. Make them into something relatively quick. If you write an outline for them and don't have many ideas, you can cut them to a short story, and that's even easier. And when you've written them, you've become more proficient at writing, putting words on the paper, and that's one of the most important things before the writer's block.

Although, I'm going to hold you on your promise eagerly.
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Fishbreath

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2010, 09:51:33 am »

@Fishbreath: Okay, just look through Unhappy Circumstances.

<snip>

On a different note, I've got a thought :o I wonder if collaborative writing really works. While sifting through all these stories, some of them mediocre, some more interesting, I catch myself on an urge - that it's not that they should be just above a certain bar - I'm looking for a gem, a bestseller, something I could lose myself in. And I know that it's hard to lose yourself in a micro story. So, I wonder if something really good and really big can be written on the forums. I would imagine that it'd be done the Snowflake method (to which I put a link in Useful Links), so that at first people brainstorm the idea, then the summary, then the characters... and only later start really writing, so as not to step on each other's toes with different plot ideas.

That'd be real cool, right?

Yeah. I think I've said before I'm not at all happy with the average quality of Three Arrivals, but I think I also said that forging onward instead of endlessly editing is my preferred way of doing things. If I have some time and I feel like putting Three Arrivals together all into one place, as I really should eventually do, I'll see if I can wring something better out of it.

On to collaborative storytelling: that's really the only way to do it. A plot beforehand is absolutely necessary if you want something better than a collaborative forum post story; on the other hand, you may have been expecting too much out of that form. :P All the successful collaborations I've read and read about (and once or twice been a part of) have had two qualities: first, there's a solid plot, and second, there aren't more than three people involved. More than that and it gets really, really hard.

Quote from: Supermikhail
NaNoWriMo.

Is great fun. Do people here have any plans for it?

EDIT: Woo! 100th reply!

mendonca

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #101 on: September 03, 2010, 10:13:43 am »

Quote from: Supermikhail
NaNoWriMo.

Is great fun. Do people here have any plans for it?

EDIT: Woo! 100th reply!

I'll probably be having a go, I won Script Frenzy this year (link), and to top it off I have a week in a remote house in the middle of France booked off in November.

I really enjoyed it, and Script Frenzy really gave me some confidence in putting together some kind of plot of anything more than 2,000 words, hopefully I can get something similar out of NaNoWriMo. But this time perhaps I will take it to another level and actually carry out some editing work on my result.

EDIT: Avoiding Double Post

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Something I am working on. I have had a single edit run through this after writing it a couple of months ago - offered up for critique. (don't know yet if it is entirely coherent with the whole story, but will get there...)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 11:58:59 am by mendonca »
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Vector

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #102 on: September 03, 2010, 12:52:22 pm »

@Vector: What Willfor said. Also, you can denote who's speaking, with action without interrupting the dialogue.

I will continue to disagree with you until I am blue in the face.


Is great fun. Do people here have any plans for it?

EDIT: Woo! 100th reply!

Yes, I'm currently sitting on two novel ideas.  I intend to start formal planning in October, and I'll write one of the suckers in November.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Supermikhail

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2010, 02:22:28 am »

This got me thinking about leaving my idea until November... But I'll have to think about it more, as I'm not very good with deadlines, and there's a danger that my NaNoWriMo will be cheated this way.

mendonca, I've read it (read them both, for that matter, but one a little earlier than another, if you remember, and you haven't edited it? Although I haven't edited mine, either. But it may be for the better as whatever I would have done with it then would have been re-edited by me now in light of gained experience)

Kind of not a lot to say, except tense shifts, the protagonist's inner voice is a little annoying, and when you switch from "he" to "the man on the seat" it's really confusing... Ah, I can't do anything with saying negative first! Bad me!
Well, anyway, it's well written in that it kind of gives us the material world, and I like that you give us the view of common life, to kind of ground us, tell us that it's real, before something happens. I hope something happens. Is it a murder mystery, by any chance?

In other news, yesterday I stumbled on this, and decided I needed to share. In the last half-year everything I've written had to deal with death to some degree (which I realized much to my surprise yesterday). Finally, I've come upon a reliable source to verify my suspicions. Rigor mortis sets in from 2 to 6 hours after death, and the proper decomposition takes 2 days to start and then it's hardly noticeable until several weeks in! Zombies, my ass!

Anyway, it's quite probable someone else will find it useful.
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mendonca

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Re: Bay12 Writers Guild
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2010, 03:48:02 am »

Kind of not a lot to say, except tense shifts, the protagonist's inner voice is a little annoying, and when you switch from "he" to "the man on the seat" it's really confusing... Ah, I can't do anything with saying negative first! Bad me!

No, don't worry, this is great, totally falls in the realms of constructive criticism - Good you!

I suspected as much with the inner monologue, but I will probably continue to write them as they help me think about the state of mind of the characters - just to strip them out at the end.

Well, anyway, it's well written in that it kind of gives us the material world, and I like that you give us the view of common life, to kind of ground us, tell us that it's real, before something happens. I hope something happens. Is it a murder mystery, by any chance?

It started off as a murder mystery, but it is now a bit different, trying to be about the man's obsession with his errant wife and the deterioration of his life / mind around this event.
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