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Author Topic: BYOR 4 - Game Over: Cult Win  (Read 111434 times)

webadict

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #300 on: August 25, 2010, 09:16:19 pm »

Vote Count
------------------------
Pandarsenic - Lonewolf I,
Org -
Lonewolf I -
Jokerman-EXE - Spartan117, Eduren,
Zathras -
Spartan117 - Zai, Org, Ottofar, Pandarsenic, Vector,
Ottofar - IronyOwl, TheBroodyMoods,
TheBroodyMoods -
Mysteriousbluepuppet - Toaster,
Vector - Zathras,
Toaster -
IronyOwl -
Eduren - Jokerman-EXE,
ToonyMan -
Zai - Mysteriousbluepuppet, ToonyMan,

Not Voting -

Day Ends on Wednesday at 9 PM Central. 8 to Hammer. 4 Extensions Requested.

Day Extended to Friday 9 PM Central.
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Eduren

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #301 on: August 25, 2010, 09:21:22 pm »

On other things, what is your read of Toonyman's request of being night killed?
I think that what he is essentially doing is WIFOM. There's no way of actually determining his intentions, and if he is being sincere, he knows that there is no way that scum will follow his advice. Its not helpful to town, and frankly I don't like it.
Annoying it may be, but as has been pointed out, it is most certainly not WIFOM, unless you are scum. Toony is not presenting townies with an ambiguous and dangerous choice; that only applies to scum. You seeing it as such is clear indication that you are pondering your night kill with his gambit in mind. Eduren, you sir, are also scum.
Here is the definition that I found for WIFOM.
Quote from: MafiaWiki
The term 'WIFOM' applies to when a person creates a reverse psychology argument that causes the reader to wonder if the arguer is trying to funnel their thinking to a specific conclusion, and then hoping to outguess the arguer. WIFOM begins to exist at the point that an argument causes a circular line of thinking within the reader.
Like I stated before, the circular thinking is created when a person tries to determine his alignment.
It's WIFOM because it confuses anybody trying to read your alignment. It is along the lines of "Would scum do this?" and the answer fluctuates between "No, its draws too much attention" and "Yes, he's taking a refuge in audacity".
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I don't know.  Duke wants me to stop playing mafia.
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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #302 on: August 25, 2010, 09:22:39 pm »

2 days ?

Man, gonna be rough to follow that when college start..
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ToonyMan

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #303 on: August 25, 2010, 09:29:28 pm »

You're always trying to determine someones alignment Eduren.
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IronyOwl

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #304 on: August 25, 2010, 10:38:46 pm »

I'd probably vote for Spartan if it came down to it. The issue I have here is that we know for a fact he's screwing up- this isn't some subtle anti-town ploy, this is facepalmingly bad failure. Normally, scumtells are things so incompetently bad for town that they have to be malice- but here, we're talking about incompetent malice. Discerning malicious incompetence from normal incompetence can be tricky, and I'm not sure we've got him on anything scum would want to do in that manner.

That said, we simply don't have any better targets, and he's firmly in the No Big Loss pile anyway. It just feels more like housekeeping than scumlynching.

So you'd lynch him, but you don't think he's scum?

As opposed to who? Ottofar's starting to move up there, since at least Spartan's showed up past RL day one, but otherwise we've got a lot of vague suspicions and semi-lurking. Of which you're a member, incidentally.


On other things, what is your read of Toonyman's request of being night killed?
I think that what he is essentially doing is WIFOM. There's no way of actually determining his intentions, and if he is being sincere, he knows that there is no way that scum will follow his advice. Its not helpful to town, and frankly I don't like it.

Annoying it may be, but as has been pointed out, it is most certainly not WIFOM, unless you are scum. Toony is not presenting townies with an ambiguous and dangerous choice; that only applies to scum. You seeing it as such is clear indication that you are pondering your night kill with his gambit in mind. Eduren, you sir, are also scum.


Since I'd like to hear people's opinons on this, I too would like a Day Extension.

I disagree. We need to figure out what he is, and that means examining his behavior. It's theoretically possible to completely ignore a substantial part of said behavior, but it's both distracting and potentially limiting. It's not "gee should I NK him" WIFOM, but it's certainly "is he scum taking RIA, a jester, NK-reciprocator, or...?" WIFOM. Admittedly, it wouldn't be such an issue if he was doing more elsewhere, but letting someone declare portions of their behavior "for scum only so you don't need to worry about it" is ridiculous.


MysteriousBluePuppet, who do you suspect, and what sorts of questions do you think would help clarify whether your suspicions are true or false? Why aren't you asking any of said questions?

Org, who are your top three and bottom three picks for being scum? Why, and why aren't you asking more questions of said scum?
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

ToonyMan

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #305 on: August 25, 2010, 10:53:07 pm »

You have a night-kill as well IronyOwl?
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IronyOwl

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #306 on: August 26, 2010, 12:32:50 am »

You have a night-kill as well IronyOwl?

Reaction fishing is nice and all, but when that's all you do, it's called being an insufferable jackass. Notably, you've done nothing to counter my claim, so it stands to reason that you don't have one but intend to continue on as though you did.
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

ToonyMan

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #307 on: August 26, 2010, 12:37:19 am »

I already said early it's not WIFOM.  Also, you didn't counter my claim.  Just like Eduren.
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ToonyMan

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #308 on: August 26, 2010, 12:37:44 am »

WIFOM for the town to be more specific.
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IronyOwl

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #309 on: August 26, 2010, 12:58:36 am »

I already said early it's not WIFOM.  Also, you didn't counter my claim.  Just like Eduren.
I disagree. We need to figure out what he is, and that means examining his behavior. It's theoretically possible to completely ignore a substantial part of said behavior, but it's both distracting and potentially limiting. It's not "gee should I NK him" WIFOM, but it's certainly "is he scum taking RIA, a jester, NK-reciprocator, or...?" WIFOM. Admittedly, it wouldn't be such an issue if he was doing more elsewhere, but letting someone declare portions of their behavior "for scum only so you don't need to worry about it" is ridiculous.

I thought this entire part was countering your claim. Could you explain why it's completely irrelevant, or why it's merely incorrect and why you chose to ignore it rather than explain why it's wrong?
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

ToonyMan

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #310 on: August 26, 2010, 01:03:26 am »

So you're saying it's okay for doing this "bad thing" I did if I were to be active (which I am), that doesn't work out any sense.

Also, mafia can't night kill themselves dude.

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Vector

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #311 on: August 26, 2010, 01:16:29 am »

I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I'm giving it anyway in hopes of clearing the air a little.

It is true that I voted Vector for meta reasons, and I may not be qualified to do so. So, I would ask those who do know her meta, except Eduren and Vector, to review these points and give their opinion:

a) She lurked with impunity for the entire game until 10 minutes before I joined (after IronyOwl prodded her). In the first two hundred posts, she has two contributions, on August 21 & 22, both contentless. Then silence until challenged.

Look up Color Mafia and BYOR... something.  1 or 2?  I'm not sure.  If you want lurking meta, then you really need to look at the stuff we were running without the rank system--because I used to have an S rank, which basically meant I could never go 24 hours without posting, unless I wanted to lose it.  Despite that, I often went for days just dropping in to say "Sorry, gonna do this later" before kicking myself into being more active.  I've always been one for smaller games, in general.  If you want evidence of that, I consistently requested small bastard mods in the Threshold thread.

The first thing you should know about me is that I'm a raging perfectionist (as you should be able to tell from my scumchats).  As such, I don't feel comfortable posting drippy, half-baked analyses.  If I haven't read things, I don't feel good about saying anything.  As they say, "speak only when you have something of significance to say."  The second thing is that I have a horrible temper, as you can probably also tell from my scumchats.

The third thing you should know is that most meta is really invalid at this point--rather, I don't know what is still true of me and my playstyle anymore.  Why?  Well, since I last really played a game, I have:

Dropped out of college (thus saying "suck it" to all the poor mathematicians who believed in me)
Been dumped by my boyfriend of two years because I was "crazy"
Come down off of moodswings the psych industry thought might be bipolar disorder
Stopped having anxiety attacks and constantly being simultaneously enraged and depressed
Realized that previously mentioned boyfriend + his mother had convinced me I was mildly autistic, when in reality I'm ... probably not.  Jury is out on that one.  The greater probability is that years of isolation made my thought process a bit odd.
Changed my focus in life from the pursuit of mathematics, in and of itself, for a more pedagogical approach
Regained my ability to concentrate for more than half a minute
Effectively rebuilt my mind from the ground up, including an occasionally over-eager defense system.

I still have a bad temper, a perfectionistic streak, and an extremely curious mind.  Who am I now?  Well, sir, I can't tell you--but if all you can do is attack me with meta that old, then I pity you.  Frankly, I would really appreciate it if you didn't hold me to the standards of the young woman I was nearly half a year ago.  I'm not that person anymore, and I'm very grateful for it.

If I continue to play precisely as I once did, feel free to use meta arguments all you want.  But seriously: times have changed, and I want to do what I can to put the person I am not behind me.


b) Then a new guy comes and votes her, shines a light on her, and she responds with two meaty paragraphs of powerful vitriol. I submit that this was an act; an attempt to scare away the newbie and redirect the new attention away from her and to either the newbie or the vitriol, not to her game so far.

I was genuinely angry.  I took a break from school to get away from people trying to tell me how to spend my time--between overbearing parents, a great mathematician who wanted me to study 14 hours a day, a friend who I had effectively needed to protect from killing herself for 8 years, the lonely people I know who I feel I'm obligated to spend time with, my high school teachers/professors who are driving me to do PhD work in languages/literature/whatever, the people telling me to write novels, the people telling me to do charity work, my violin teacher who needed me to continue, all those fools who tell me to go into acting, and on top of that everyone who's saying "just relax, Vector!  Relax!"...

I snapped.  I am really, truly sorry about it, but that is one of my big red buttons.  I'm trying to overcome this feeling of tension that comes up whenever someone asks me to perform yet another duty--people who I want to repay, somehow, for everything they've given me (the knowledge, the support, the friendship, the lessons).  I don't know if I can reward their faith.

And who are you?  You're some guy on the internet, attacking me because I'm not giving this game enough of my time.


- Have you seen her doing something like this, when playing as town?

NSBM 1 was a far more restrained version of this.  I lynched Free Beer at that point because I hated him, and that hate colored my perceptions.
There are other examples of similar WoTs.  It just happens sometimes.

- Would this be within her repertoire, when playing as scum?

Yes.  I bussed two of my partners in BYOR: Panda.  Easily.  Why?  Well, the first one I bussed because I was mad at her.  The second one I bussed because he had to die.

As Broody said, I'm slippery.  My repertoire contains just about everything.

- If this is within her possible scum game, why would she do it, unless I was onto something?

Because you pissed me off.  You pissed me off because I needed to step off-stage for a while, and you had the audacity to think that you should be able to stop me.  Town, scum, third party, whatever: I have buttons.  When people press them, I explode.


Walls of text, yes. Walls of invective, explosive vitriol? Do you recall? Would you say it's likelier for scum Vector, town Vector, or just I'm-tired-leave-me-alone Vector?

I exploded at a newbie in iPick because he had the audacity to ... do something.  I think he was trying to turn one of my own techniques against me, soon after I'd taught it to him as an IC.  I was nicer to him, though, because I liked him.

However, I've never exploded like that on this board, no.

I don't normally get that angry, in general.  Sometimes I do.  It happens when I'm tired and I feel overburdened, and I tried to give you a warning: stop pressing me or I'm going to eat you.  You pressed me more, and so I ate you.  As I said, I feel bad about it.  I feel less bad because despite the message, you presumed to understand what's going on in my life, without taking into consideration the fact that... well, you don't know what's going on in my life.  It felt like horrible manners.

Of course, horrible manners isn't a good excuse for what I did: there's no good excuses... but at least I can give an explanation or something.

Ugh, man.  I hope you're not too offended.  That was bad of me.


I guess I'd better post this, before I get too wrapped up in the morality of this situation again.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Vector

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #312 on: August 26, 2010, 01:20:13 am »

Sorry for the double-post.  I realized that the above needed a summary.

So:

I have a bad temper.  You triggered it.
I feel that some of my meta may be outdated.
Within that outdated body of meta: I have done similar things as both scum and town.
I have never done anything precisely like this before, mostly because I was trying really hard to be a nice cream cupcake when I was dating.
It turned out that I am nothing like a cream cupcake, and I should never have tried.
I am sorry for what I did.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Zathras

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #313 on: August 26, 2010, 02:09:21 am »

I have a bad temper.  You triggered it.
I feel that some of my meta may be outdated.
Within that outdated body of meta: I have done similar things as both scum and town.
I have never done anything precisely like this before, mostly because I was trying really hard to be a nice cream cupcake when I was dating.
It turned out that I am nothing like a cream cupcake, and I should never have tried.
I am sorry for what I did.

Oh well -- I'm sorry for unintentionally making you angry, and you are right that between the end of the ranking system and all else, at least the lurking meta is obsolete. Thank you for the depth of the message.

I do think your scum game is keen enough to be able to pull the vitriol as an act then and the explanation now both as a screen (that's a compliment, not an argument), but if you are, it worked. I will unvote you for now, but I'll continue to keep tabs on you (you wouldn't expect anything else, would you?).


Quote
I still have a bad temper, a perfectionistic streak, and an extremely curious mind.
... and a mean scum game. Those things don't go away ("Temper, genius and shape, you take to the tomb", they say were I come from), so don't blame a guy for always trying to read what you say from both sides, upside down, and reflected in a mirror.


Quote
Ugh, man.  I hope you're not too offended.  That was bad of me.

Not at all, I have very thick skin. Please let me know if the sig bugs you and I'll change it; it's there now because that was, in essence, my "welcome to the forums" moment.


...which brings us to Eduren. Congratulations! You have just been promoted to top scum in my list. Is there anything you can say in your general defense, or do you have suggestions as to other places to which I can point my wrath? Apart from Jokerman, who do you think I should be looking at other than you?

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Ottofar

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Re: BYOR 4 - Day 1: Interesting Predicament...
« Reply #314 on: August 26, 2010, 08:56:43 am »

Oh dear. Eight pages in which I haven't posted. On monday nothing interesting had happened to post about, and on tuesday, I got home late, and posted a quick thing, but the electricity went down, taking the internet with it. I'll do a longer post tomorrow, assuming I have time.

Unvote

Vote Eduren
, you were defending Vector, and I'd like to see your alignment. Or Vector's.
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