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Author Topic: Expedition Roguelike  (Read 48005 times)

slashie

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2010, 10:34:25 pm »

I'd be really excited to see population density modled closer to the high count numbers in 1491.  its definitly worth your time to read given your interest in these topics, Slashie.  It does a good job of talking about some of the current anthropological contraversies rather than singlemindedly advocating any one viewpoint.  But it does lean quite a bit toward the "high count" arguements.
I will look forward to fetch it, thank you.

for colonization, wouldnt outposts more logically be built with local materials?  The valueable equipment for building sustainable camps and colonies would probably be Tools and Plants.
May be wood for the first basic buildings (which you can chop from around), and seeds/tools for making farms which make the colony sustainable. Coupled with the much desired food production...

I still gotta think how to balance that part, it shouldn't be easy to just virally grow from your first, food producing colony.. I want to keep the tension the game currently has...
on a completely different note, the ship repair mechanism seems a bit odd to me.  did they really haul bulk quantaties of lumber for this? 
From what i remember, most repairs of wooden vessels required liberal application of Pitch. 

Also, stopping travel at sea to make repairs seems odd.  I've been on some large sailing vessels, and those guys were constantly working on repairs while we were under sail.  it was pretty much a constant ongoing process:  cleaning, repainting spots, repairing fixtures, sewing sails and flags, you name it.  from what i've read about naval battles, serious repairs need to be done in a port, or at a minimum on a beach.  Thats probably the only place where you would pause and use bulk quantaties of lumber.  otherwise, I think it just happens in motion.
Well, those manteinance tasks are abstracted, ship damage is currently reserved for bigger things I think...

I have thought about the need to repair at a port or at least adjacent to land... I'm going more for "damages" on the ships which must be fixed on land (say the hull is heavily damaged, causing a 30% loss of the ship integrity, of which only 10% can be fixed in the sea)

Also, http://slashie.net/mantis/view.php?id=1250
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Sowelu

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #136 on: October 15, 2010, 03:43:10 am »

On the mention of "normal" vs. "hardcore" mode, I think that would be a useful setting for native populations.  Have one setting (maybe as part of a global difficulty, maybe a native-specific setting) where they have full disease resistance.  Good luck wedging your way in!
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Neonivek

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #137 on: October 15, 2010, 04:01:50 am »

Honestly if you want to starve the players of resources without taking away their ability to create residents then the answer is simple

Add MORE realism.

People don't just pick any spot and go "Hey lets live there" so just make sure that sucky spots don't work.

If they find a great spot and put an investment into it that pays off. Perfect! however that should feel MORE like their "Homebase" is further out so they can explore.

At least I assume that exploring is the goal.
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puke

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #138 on: October 15, 2010, 02:26:57 pm »

also, seasons.  planting a colony in the begining of spring might be a viable idea, but setting down some colonists at the end of fall is probably going to end badly for them.

depending on where they are, of course.

having population density being a factor in difficulty might be as easy as setting the era of play.  want to launch your expedition in 1490s?  you have to find your own way there, make contact, guess at what to trade, and there will be little to no way of establishing a beach head on the very populated shores.  little funding is available, because the risks are high and the return on investment is unknown.  this would be the "hard" mode

or embark in 1500s?  routes are already established and the natives have thinned out significantly, there is some competition for trade but you already know what goods are valueable where, and roughly what you could expect to bring back.  funding is available for large expeditions from a number of national sponsors, and it might be a prime time to engage in a massive land battle against the aztecs.  this might be "medium" difficulty

or set fourth in the 1520s or 30s. all the great powers are getting in on the game.  prime time to get financing for global circumnavigation (i'll call it the straights of puke, thank you), establishing colonies or permanent trade routes, christianizing the Incas, or any number of things.  just like the dot-com bubble, investors are willing to fork over funding for all kinds of nonsense, be it searching for the seven cities of gold or the fountain of youth.  you might not have any luck, but at least you can have a great time kicking around the new world on someone else's dime. this is the "easy" start.

also, with better established routes, some "auto travel" might be possible.  i'm sure thats been suggested.

I think these ideas also lend towards a continual world campaign play, where you can follow up with another explorer (possibly funded by another power) after your last one dies or retires.  maybe rolling the clock ahead a decade, or maybe not.  thats also probably been suggested before.

I dont think you should lose too much focus following those things, though.  it would be a different game entirely if it continued past the age of exploration and got into the age of colonization.  I think some of the existing proposals for self-sustaining (even profitable) colony management should probalby be curtailed a bit.  which ever way you go though, i'm sure there will continue to be lots of positive response.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #139 on: October 15, 2010, 06:04:05 pm »

My internet connection + puke's new post just lost my long list of references and documentation, but I got to retype it...

We begin with why Disease is important to expeditions:
Disease played a major part in how expeditions worked out. The de Soto expedition was following the failed Narvaez expedition. The Narvaez expedition was a colonization effort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto#1539_to_early-1540_in_Florida
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narv%C3%A1ez_Expedition
That expidition resulted in the devistation of the Missippian Culture. (The Missippian organizational structure was already destroyed by famine prior to the arrival of the Europeans. This just killed off everyone who remembered it, so that the order that survived was destroyed. The true extent of what occured really cannot even be imagined, since there is nothing to compare it to. A good example is this though, According to the de Soto expedition, the Coosa Super-Chiefdom commanded a vast area in Alabama, Georgia, Tenessee, and North Carolina. The Coosa had many chiefdoms under them, with a population in the tens of thousands. Then it disintegrated. The Cherokee took much of the land the Coosa lost to disease. The rest became part of the Muscogee Confederacy (eventually). This was a real concequence of expeditions. For example, we look at the expedition that de Soto was involved in just prior to the one he lead and died on...
The Conquest of the Incan Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Pizarro#Expeditions_to_South_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_the_Inca_Empire
In 1528, the king of the Inca and the designated Heir died to smallpox. This may have come from Pizarro's expedition that went close to the Inca border, or it could have been from a different source. Reguardless, the Inca Empire was the only group in the Super-Contenent of America to have extensive road systems. At first you may think "Who cares", but disease can prevent travel. Moving fast allows disease to spread before it is even noticed. So, the road network probably turned into a very deadly tool used by Smallpox.
There was 90%+ fatality rate to native villages that became infected with smallpox. This resulted in 2/3rds of the Blackfoot population to die on the great plains in 1837. Imagine what it looked like in the Inca Empire, where people traveling between their villages was probably quick and easy. I'd believe 75% casualty rates pretty easily. Keep in mind that in the 1526 Expedition, when he saw the tribe that the Inca conquered, he was afraid due to their numbers and attitude. Now imagine the people that must have conquered them. He had more than 160 men with him at the time, supposedly.
Yet in 1532, with less men then previously, he marched in. A lot of his success was with the audacity of his actions, but just the same, the dramatic change in opinion of the difficulty of the task probably had a source somewhere.
Cortez's expedition had it's own windfall from smallpox, but due to the nature of what happened, it wasn't as great a benefit as it was for Pizarro. Cortez had great armies of Natives fighting at his side, and the losses by the Aztecs were paralleled with losses from the Tlaxcala and other allies. Still, assuming a 30% fatality rate that EUROPEANS have when exposed to smallpox, and the fact that every person in that city probably got exposed, that city must have been choked with corpses. Keep in mind that at the time, this was among one of the largest cities in the world. Assuming a population of 300,000, that'd be 90000 people dead in 3 months. That was 1000 times the force that Cortez had. As other places show though, the fatality rate for natives on first exposure was generally significantly higher than 30%. The people in the area had a prophecy of the end of the world around this time. Imagine how it must have looked to them. This outsider overthrows the regeme at the top, and then practically everyone you know starts dying.


This doesn't do much except prove it has an impact on expeditions. But there is still the problem, how to prevent it from wiping out all the natives.

Short answer: Don't. The idea is to have the natives seem numurous when you arrive, and look as it currently looks as the natives end up ravaged by the disease.
Long answer:
It took 26 years for the disease to cross the ocean. (There are some who claim a 1507 disease date, but I've found no evidence supporting it, and some counterdicting it.)
This is because smallpox takes about 15 days to become infectous, and sometime around three months for a ship to cross the ocean. Ships are tight quarters, and so it is actually pretty difficult for an infection to not run it's course. There were some pretty sizable expeditions that came out before the disease came. This is due to the fact that once you have been infected with smallpox and survive, you are immune. Smallpox ravished Europe pretty constantly, so you didn't have a large percentage of the population who didn't have immunity. So getting a sailor infected at all would have been somewhat rare.
But let's ignore those hurdles, which would make the infection pretty hard unless you deliberatly attempted to carry it. Your next hurdle is that the people who have almost no resistance would spread it too quick. If your population X is mortal enemies of population Y, you probably don't regualrly send trade delegations into their territory. You also aren't going to send a raiding band with someone who is sick. He wouldn't be able to hold his own. As such, every place there is strife between tribes, you have a wall blocking the transmission of the disease. The ones who have it would die off and then the entire progress would halt.
Finally, there are seasons. Travel in winter is harder than in the summer. As such, during the winter you'd have infected villages die off without spreading it. It might be bouncing around a little still, but not as strongly.
Not every village has to trade with their neighbors twice a month. As such, it is entirely possible that a trade delegation from neighboring villages might not even be exposed.

Of course there are some strong countering forces to those actions too. Smallpox-infected clothing and blankets, for example. There is also the extensive trade network that the natives have. There might be a neutral group on the side of each of those two belligerants which infects them both and keeps spreading it. It's estimated that the disease could have reasonably spread 200 miles before someone got sick, resulting in a situation where the disease might have been spread across the entire supercontenent in no more than a year.
Likely in some form it was spread across the contenent by the early 1600s, probably more than once in fact.

If you have a large starting population and give survivors immunity to smallpox, and only have it transmit via active infections, you could make a pretty good model that, combined with models that cause the natives to have strife with each other and colonize and populate places on their own, creates a situation that could allow clever expeditions with very small forces to loot an area and then return to see friendly allies took over the countryside. Perhaps even people that you convinced to be loyal to the king of Spain. Or maybe you might loot an area with help of your allies only to come back later to learn that your allies were defeated, since they were severely weakened by smallpox, and now your safe area has become too dangerous to explore.

But enough about disease. If it happens, it'll happen. I am certain that if you model it right and start with huge native populations, it should come out pretty evenly.

On to puke's addition...
1490s was early expeditions and establishing footholds
1500s were identification of primary native powers
1510s were the initial assaults of the native powers
1520s were looting expeditions
1530s were colonization expeditions of spain and portugal and final conquests, and french explorations.
1540s were exploration expeditions
1550s were when the other powers started exploration expeditions
1560s was when you could reasonably consider to be the period of colonization.

Everything before the 1520s would have lots of natives. Times after that would have fewer.
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puke

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #140 on: October 15, 2010, 07:59:09 pm »

the Englishman John Cabot was in present-day Canada in 1497, but you're right that the vast majority were Spanish and Portugese. 

But thanks for presenting such a wealth of usefull information, it's really great to be brushing up on this stuff.  The age of exploration was one of my favorite parts of history, and I'm happy to see it getting attention from modern scholars...  and videogame makers.

It would certainly be interesting to see infectuous disease incorporated in the way you describe.  One of the main carriers were not sailors and blankets though, but livestock.  chickens and pigs.  I'm also given to understand that since the natives did not have experience with infectious disease, they didnt have taboos about contact nor any ideas about quarantine.  hence, it spread far more quickly than say the black plague in Europe.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #141 on: October 17, 2010, 09:57:59 am »

Actually, the livestock and pig versions of the infection weren't what devastated the new world. In fact, the livestock versions were responsible for a great deal of the immunity that Europeans had. Cowpox was responsible for teaching humans how to vaccinate.
The smallpox that crossed the ocean probably did it in flakes of scabs of smallpox in a cargo of clothes looted from dead bodies in Europe to be put on the native slaves working in the mines of Hispaniola.

But that is just speculation. It's possible it came from a chain of infection on board a ship. Highly unlikely, but possible.

One thing is sure, it didn't come from the animals, since smallpox is unique to humans.

I know that England came before France somewhere, since France sort of came in and claimed the territory between Spain and England.
There were quite a few oddball countries that sent expeditions too. Sweden colonized the new World too, though they were defeated by the Dutch. But those oddballs didn't come until well after the age of exploration was over, and landed in areas already explored by others.
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slashie

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #142 on: October 17, 2010, 10:46:50 am »

Thank you all for your input, a new version is on the way. No disease yet, but still :)

http://slashie.net/mantis/roadmap_page.php?project_id=9

It's done, testing a bit before releasing!
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puke

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2010, 12:11:31 pm »

One thing is sure, it didn't come from the animals, since smallpox is unique to humans.

Smallpox came from cows.  Its not just about that, though.  Pigs brought influenza, chickens brought malaria, there was yellow fever and boubonic plague, and all maner of european disease which were mostly propogated by animals.  yes, living in proximity with animals built immunities within european populations.  thats because those animas were spreading the diseases.  brinigng animals to the new world does not bring immunity with the animals, it brings the disease.  Generations of high death toll from the diseases brings the immunities.
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slashie

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2010, 04:01:10 pm »

A new version is available, Great changes on food consumption, farms, autoforage enabled, Wind Indicator, and more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi-lhIH3Pg8 - there and back!

Download from http://slashie.net/page.php?27

Expedition - 0.2.1
================
- 0001249: [Request for Enhancement] Increase density of villages in the new world - closed.
- 0001239: [Request for Enhancement] Enhance castle exit - closed.
- 0001217: [Request for Enhancement] Show current item count when purchasing, trading and transfering - closed.
- 0001204: [Request for Enhancement] Wind indicator - closed.
- 0001203: [Request for Enhancement] Produce food in farms - closed.
- 0001252: [Task] Forage food at settlements - closed.
- 0001111: [Request for Enhancement] Fishing - closed.
- 0001223: [Bug Report] Found fruit when foraging at sea - closed.
- 0001224: [Task] Increase starvation resistance - closed.
- 0001225: [Task] Reduce food consumption on land - closed.
- 0001211: [Bug Report] Trading is ineffective - closed.
- 0001251: [Request for Enhancement] Balance Death - closed.
- 0001222: [Bug Report] Spelling errors - closed.

Thank you for all your input!

Best regards,
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2010, 06:51:36 pm »

One thing is sure, it didn't come from the animals, since smallpox is unique to humans.

Smallpox came from cows.  Its not just about that, though.  Pigs brought influenza, chickens brought malaria, there was yellow fever and boubonic plague, and all maner of european disease which were mostly propogated by animals.  yes, living in proximity with animals built immunities within european populations.  thats because those animas were spreading the diseases.  brinigng animals to the new world does not bring immunity with the animals, it brings the disease.  Generations of high death toll from the diseases brings the immunities.

Really?
You Sure?

Quote from: 1
The authors compare hypotheses about where and when strains of the virus evolved. No one hypotheses is ruled out, but an ancient origin seems most plausible since the slowly evolving virus now exclusively infects humans, implying that any intermediate link to an animal host has long since died out.

Quote from: 2
Smallpox appears to have evolved from an African rodent-borne variola-like virus.

Top 2 hits from googling "Smallpox Evolution"

I don't see any even quasi-credible source that claims smallpox is transmittable by animals. Where is your information?
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puke

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #146 on: October 19, 2010, 02:52:11 pm »

thats fine.  cowpox is one of the many evoloutionary offshoots of the original smallpox strain, which is ultimately of an unknown source.  its not the parent, but a cousin.  you win the pendant of the day prize, and have successfully dodged the meat of the discussion on the vectors of disease in the new world.

good job.

I have some interesting links on disease vectors, but you probably dont need them.  there are also some really good sections on the topic in that book you seem to like, but its probably not important.
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slashie

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #147 on: October 19, 2010, 03:22:41 pm »

peace, gentlemen.


and... war!
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2010, 12:10:45 am »

I am not saying that Animals weren't responsible for European immunity and Native vulnerability, I am just saying that animals isn't how they crossed the ocean.

(Like I said before, it was probably from cold cost-saving issues reguarding to slavery that you wouldn't dream of treating a fellow human being like today that caused it. In this case smallpox infected clothing. I'll bet if I dig I'll find a connection.)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 12:12:33 am by Kogan Loloklam »
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puke

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Re: Expedition Roguelike
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2010, 11:07:30 am »

That may be, but smallpox wasnt the only factor.  Truely, it wasnt.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_Exchange#Examples
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