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[Mephansteras]

In my mind eyes I see an army of elves, on horses, they fall into a chasm -- they started their circle-based-turning too late.

Such things are actually a military tactic that was used.  Pits and dry moats were often built with small hummocks to make them harder to see in time to make a turn away from them while gallopping.  Even mildly fortified locations could be very expensive on calvary.

That brings up an interesting point. Horses in real life are very susceptible to broken legs, whereas ones in Dwarf Fortress probably won't be more than stunned by a 1-zlevel fall. It'd be useful to have some way to denote that a given body part is weak and easily damaged compared to the rest of the animal.

[gralcio]

In my mind eyes I see an army of elves, on horses, they fall into a chasm -- they started their circle-based-turning too late.

Such things are actually a military tactic that was used.  Pits and dry moats were often built with small hummocks to make them harder to see in time to make a turn away from them while gallopping.  Even mildly fortified locations could be very expensive on calvary.

That brings up an interesting point. Horses in real life are very susceptible to broken legs, whereas ones in Dwarf Fortress probably won't be more than stunned by a 1-zlevel fall. It'd be useful to have some way to denote that a given body part is weak and easily damaged compared to the rest of the animal.

You mean, like bone/tendril susceptibility to damage?

[Mephansteras]

Yeah.

[gralcio]

Hmm, it could be done with a set of tags in body parts, I think.
Damage to a given body part could trigger a chance for certain conditions, like blind, deaf, unable to walk - recoverable, or not.
Might also partialy depend on a type of damage received. There is support for edges, points, smashes too, I guess.

There are already some bleeds based on a similar mechanics.

And imagine a group of blind pump operators working for the sake of your magma forge (chained so they don't wander away to perform such undwarvenly activities like sleeping in their own b... argh, like sleeping in a bed)

If they wanted to move further, they would need to make a bone-joint-muscle model. Don't think such models would work in a rational time. Also, no idea who would be happy to design a bone&muscle system of -- let's say -- a hydra. (honestly, suddenly sounded like a best thing ever to start doing right now)

[drvoke]

The very fact that people would be motivated to say that video games are not art is all the proof I need to know that video games are art.

That's some fairly dangerous logic.  After all, I would say the used tissue on my desk beside me is not art... does that prove you would want to buy it and hang it on your wall?

Two words: Marcel Duchamp

In any case, games are art if anything is art.  I can think of plenty that satisfy all of my personal criteria, anyway.

Is Dwarf Fortress art?  The game itself doesn't tick all the boxes, but that's because it's not saying anything.  It's more like a set of fine painters tools.  Someone in this thread already mentioned all the fortress and adventure stories, and that's some of the art being created using these tools.

[Retro]

Damn, my thong question didn't get answered. We will never know!

[Patchouli]

Then you'd increase your repertoire, you'd trade in your time and the years of your life for some more skills, and you could then practice them on people as well when you're actually fighting, and you could get better at them that way, but you won't learn new skills that way, unless you fight people long enough and then you suddenly realise 'I know how to do the eagle punch all of a sudden! I understand the deep mystery!' There could be things like that especially if we have universes that are move like Fist of the North Star, then that kind of thing would start to happen, but mostly we're thinking training with warriors and so on.

I long to adventure as dwarf-Kenshiro.

[monk12]

In any case, games are art if anything is art.  I can think of plenty that satisfy all of my personal criteria, anyway.

This is what Toady was talking about in the podcast. Art is so subjective that an objective discussion about it is fairly impossible. Does art need to affect more than one person to be art? Does it need to have such a wide market appeal that you could stand to make money off of it? Does its creator need to intend it to be art, or can art be produced accidentally?

What is art? What is a game? I've seen a ton of arguments about both of those last questions all over the place, and participated in a fair number, and depending on which definition you operate under for both of them changes whether or not games are art.

Art like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.

Says the Beholder avatar...


And as always, many thanks for the soothing notes of DF!

[drvoke]

In any case, games are art if anything is art.  I can think of plenty that satisfy all of my personal criteria, anyway.

This is what Toady was talking about in the podcast. Art is so subjective that an objective discussion about it is fairly impossible. Does art need to affect more than one person to be art? Does it need to have such a wide market appeal that you could stand to make money off of it? Does its creator need to intend it to be art, or can art be produced accidentally?

What is art? What is a game? I've seen a ton of arguments about both of those last questions all over the place, and participated in a fair number, and depending on which definition you operate under for both of them changes whether or not games are art.

I think the "Is X art?" question is sort of misleading anyway, now that I think on it a little bit.  A better question might be to ask, for any piece of work is, "What artistic merit does this have?"  The judgments will be subjective, but it might be a more sort of useful question that gets at what most people think of when they're pondering "art."

Obviously not everyone is going to be happy with such a potentially inclusive way of thinking about art.  Some potential counter-arguments might be that if you allow for anything to be art, the idea of art might become meaningless.  Art should only be recognized among certain types of media.  Art can only be something created with the intent to make art.

So while I agree that art discussions seem impossible to have objectively, I think it has something to do with the way people are thinking about the problem.

The art discussion in DF Talk 9 was a bit of a meandering digression, so my thoughts on this may be pointless.. But I just thought that it was weird to think of Dwarf Fortress as art when artists tools seems like a much more apt comparison.

[Nivim]

 This is the first time I listened to the DF talk instead of reading the transcript. I am struck by the fact that there's so much stuttering, and it takes four times as long to absorb the information.

 Oh, and the most you can pin down about the definition of "art" is "what someone calls art." It requires one thinking being to perceive it and deem it so; that is all.
 Thusly, Dwarf Fortress is probably art; definitely so if you have a quote.

[CobaltKobold]

Kobolds!
So, do they lay eggs or not?
I was confused.
AND!! I didn't hear a SINGLE Kobold recipe.

Spoiler: Kobold Recipe (click to show/hide)

3 urr Snreelagnuk
1 kai stnuclim (ed: 'imported' from goblins)
5 bll klithaomech.
Bltring til fluustred.
Vuriles 3-4.

The transcripts by mallocks have been posted, available at the DF Talk page or here:
Transcript
Extra Hour Transcript

Got some corrections, though I appreciate Mallocks's work.

Spoiler: DF Talk 9 (click to show/hide)

(not Toady): The kobold shaman enlarges the chicken, makes it a giant chicken.
is a missing line immediately before
>So I guess that was our discussion about kobolds

"situations" should be "circumstances", "reigns" should be "reins", in
>Yeah that'll happen [...]

"move like Fist of the North Star" -> "more like Fist of the North Star"

"cry up the body part tree" -> "climb up the body part tree"

In bonus segments you missed a Pokémon-based small exchange right after "I want to raise sheep".

Spoiler: DF Talk 9B: God of Blood (click to show/hide)

"crush it into flower" -> "crush it into flour"
"flowers, sugar, dye" -> "flours, sugar, dye"

As for the content, enjoyable. But...DF isn't art.

DF creates art.

[Nivim]

As for the content, enjoyable. But...DF isn't art [to me].

DF creates art.

[CobaltKobold]

Hmm? Oh, sure. Subjective.

But to make an analogy DF isn't a book, it's movable type. I think Toady at one point called it a "fantasy story generator" or some such.

DF certainly is at times a Masterpiece.

Especially when turtle crafts turn dwarves into military-destroying fireballs.

[mallocks]

Got some corrections, though I appreciate Mallocks's work.

Spoiler: DF Talk 9 (click to show/hide)

(not Toady): The kobold shaman enlarges the chicken, makes it a giant chicken.
is a missing line immediately before
>So I guess that was our discussion about kobolds

"situations" should be "circumstances", "reigns" should be "reins", in
>Yeah that'll happen [...]

"move like Fist of the North Star" -> "more like Fist of the North Star"

"cry up the body part tree" -> "climb up the body part tree"

In bonus segments you missed a Pokémon-based small exchange right after "I want to raise sheep".

Spoiler: DF Talk 9B: God of Blood (click to show/hide)

"crush it into flower" -> "crush it into flour"
"flowers, sugar, dye" -> "flours, sugar, dye"

Cripes, some bad ones in there, thanks; I'll send the corrected ones off to Toady. I didn't miss the Pokémon exchange so much as I couldn't work it out for the life of me, so rather than leave something in there that made no sense I just excised it. If you can work it out just leave a shout in this thread or send me a PM and I'll add it to the corrections.

[Encased in burning magma]

I long to adventure as dwarf-Kenshiro.

I would be nice to meet a human legendary wrestler like that.
"I am Kenshiro, killer of Raoh!"
And instead of "Prepare to die", he would say "You are already dead".

The Human Wrestler entered a martial trance!
The Human Wrestler screams "Atatatatatatata"
You have been struck down.