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Author Topic: Technological progress?  (Read 896 times)

SeveQ

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Technological progress?
« on: August 04, 2010, 08:29:43 am »

Has anyone suggested technological progress yet? I mean, a culture that exists for several hundred years will inevitably develop new technologies. In DF this might result in new and improved reactions and buildings, improved resource consumption, discovering so far unknown materials and stuff like that. Would make DF even more realistic.

What do you think?
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Cotes

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 10:05:42 am »

It has been discussed, and I believe the consensus was that an abstract tech-tree system must be avoided like a plague. Toady seems to be against making the technology develop past Middle Ages however, which probably makes making a more realistic tech development system rather difficult.
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
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SeveQ

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 10:24:04 am »

Yes, but a predefined tech tree is a little bit different from what I'm thinking of.

It's maybe too complicated and hard to implement... but what about some kind of technological evolution? I mean, humans, dwarves and elves could sometimes (randomly) develop new reactions based on the predefined or previously developed ones. Some of these reactions could get used much more than others, even more than their ancestors (that is improvement), and the other reactions that won't get used anymore could fall into oblivion (that is evolution), leaving only their traces in history. Finally there will be plenty of generated reactions with improved abilities compared to the predefined ones, and even totally new ones (perhaps even with their associated workshops).

But maybe I'm just dreaming too much...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 11:52:41 am »

Rather than asking, there is a search function in the upper right corner of the page you can use.  Searching "Technology Progress" provided at least four topics specifically devoted to the notion.  (Search terms must all be present for a hit to register, if you can't find anything, use fewer search terms per search.)

This one is the most recent, whose premise was pretty much exactly a "random tech evolution" as you described, which then went into the broader argument over whether there should be technological progress as we think about it with a modern mindset in a medieval world at all, much less of the sort that can be fit into the way that Dwarf Fortress is modeled.  (A culture that exists for hundreds of years, in fact, does NOT have to progress.  It is, in fact, entirely possible for cultures to backslide.)

I.E. Agricultural reforms are a massively important cultural event that can propel a nation from subsistance to wealthy, but which would, in-game, be represented by the actions of the player in how he manages his farmland.

The best you can do is have a system by which workshops have pre-requisite tools that can be improved and upgraded and which enable better quality work, or outright whether work on advanced armors like platemail can take place based upon having proper tool upgrades. (See http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49802.15)

Having something like a set of reactions that creates different metals as gradual improvements of metallurgy is one of the few things that would be possible, however... it just requires that you put into the raws a dozen different formulas of "Steel" or "Bronze" or other alloys that indicate somehow being able finetune the process down to making a better alloy, although even this would require more advanced tools than simply a "Oh, hey, I've got a new idea! Let's try adding a little less carbon than the previous 1000 years of dwarven smithies that came before me!  I'm sure they never thought of trying to experiment with that before!", and even then, the differences between having "Fine Dwarven Steel" versus "Damascus Steel" or even "Crude Steel" may not stand out terribly much in-game.  (As long as steel is still the best metal besides the HFS, you will still put it on as many dwarves as you can, and you will still control dwarves in the exact same way.)
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 01:32:49 pm »

I think DF is intended to be about development of personality rather than technology. It's subtitle is "stories of diligence and greed" or a variation thereof, i.e. a positive and a negative personality trait. The conflict between those is what will make the stories, will make the personalities, and will make the game.
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mLegion

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 01:48:09 pm »

I wouldn't mind a more abstract form of tech-tree, by simply adding more pre-requisites to buildings and actions. Like many of the workshop's seem to display item's within themselves, i wouldn't mind if i was actually expected to supply the item's workshop's seem to be made of rather then a single rock.

Also adding a minimum skill level for certain action's and building job's. eg. Need a dwarf with at least 4 plant gathering to build a soil farm, need a dwarf with at least 8 farming to build an irrigated (mud) farm need a dwarf with at least 15 farming to be able to fertilize farms. Need a dwarf with at least 10 masonry build a mechanic's workshop, need a dwarf with at least 5 mechanic to connect lever's to bridges. ect...

Additionally building upgrades might be nice. This assumes workshops do not start with all default actions available. eg A mechanic would have to install a mechanism into a farmer's workshop to allow processing of sweet pods to barrels ect...
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cameron

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 03:05:39 pm »

if more things like reactions ever become randomized and there was some sort of library type thing where you could access documentation on things then i would think having that documentation grow as time went on would be a good type of technological progress. that way because it was randomized the wiki couldn't be used as anything more then a starting point for experimentation which would then become unnecessary as the world ages and libraries grow.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 03:40:31 pm »

As long as the "tech level" is realized by something concrete (like manuals in libraries, or existing infrastructure) it could have a place in the game. Abstract number accumulation is not where this game is going.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 04:10:31 pm »

Also adding a minimum skill level for certain action's and building job's. eg. Need a dwarf with at least 4 plant gathering to build a soil farm, need a dwarf with at least 8 farming to build an irrigated (mud) farm need a dwarf with at least 15 farming to be able to fertilize farms. Need a dwarf with at least 10 masonry build a mechanic's workshop, need a dwarf with at least 5 mechanic to connect lever's to bridges. ect...

That is hugely problematic.

So if you are starting a new fort, and you forgot to add points to your starting seven dwarves' farming skill, you simply can't farm at all, and your fortress is doomed to starve?

If you blank out all ways for dwarves to even start a job to gain the skills it takes to get the basics down, it essentially makes the game unplayable.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
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mLegion

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 04:20:00 pm »

Only an example, but hence the 4 in plant gathering gives a farmer enough skill to make a basic farm. Any 'real' implementation in game would always have to include some basic manner of getting the minimum needed skill to start.
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Vercingetorix

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 05:09:56 pm »

I think with the implementation of magic the need for technological development would be much smaller, possibly confined to incremental discoveries or random events.
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Do you always look at it in ASCII?

You get used to it, I don't even see the ASCII.  All I see is blacksmith, miner, goblin.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Technological progress?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 05:26:18 pm »

Heh, I hadn't thought about that, but it may actually be right - Magic may be something that lends itself far more towards building up accumulated research into experimental spellcasting "Basic Research" then developing workable spells out of prototype magic until it can eventually be "put into production" in common use.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare