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[smjjames]

Question:

Would we be as worried about illegal immigation on the southern border if there was a large area of happy business/farmers/ranchers on the Mexico side instead of armed quasi-military murderous drug cartels?  I believe the cartels are the real threat.  The fear that they are going to export their culture of violence across the borders IMO the true threat.  Anyone who has been paying attention to Laredo/Neuvo Laredo knows what I mean.  Mexico has lost complete control of the northern half of its land.

Also, perhaps the drop in supposed illegal immigration is because of the drop in the economy, so I guess the Democrats/Eugenicists got their way by forcing a banking/housing collapse  /sick-burn:cloward-piven (sorry Aquizzar - couldnt resist )

Mexico is probably in danger of losing more than the northern half of the country. The cartels seem to pervade everywhere and corruption is rampant (like we didn't know that already). While it seems politically stable now, if the cartels undermine the top government or even topple it and Mexico becomes even worse than it is now and becomes some kind of dictatorial-narco state controlled by violent cartels (think Italian mob, but much, much, much more violent), how will the US situation be then?

It would become REALLY scary when we have a rogue state right next door with a very real chance of confrontation. I know we have dealt with dictatorships in the region before, but they were either on an island or relatively distant. With the exception of Cuba with its Russian ally, the other dictatorships in the region didn't pose a threat to us.

@Nikov: Thats REVOLUTIONARY war, not british civil war.

Wasnt the English Civil war (AKA war of the roses I think) in the 1400s or something?

Edit: Checked wiki, it was in the 1600s.

Edit2: The one in the 1400s is the war of the roses I was thinking about. Got the two different wars confused.

[Nikov]

Cant help myself:

Ya'know, the "american" Indians immigrated here too (potential shit storm in 5...4...3...2...1...) and set about slaughtering each other the entire way vying for land..................(*seeks cover)

I know, right? The Beaver Wars were a series of bloody genocides by the Iroquois to monopolize the fur trade in the Great Lakes regions. Then everyone's all, Oh, we evil white people showed up and killed the poor defenseless wittle Indians and stole their lands they lived in for thousands of peaceful years with our big scary guns and smallpox, us evil white people.

Bunch of flagellants.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

@SMJ:  Exactly.  I have a feeling though that the cartels wont completely remove the goverment in Mexico, but will instead use it as a figurehead and for international cover if the US decides enough is enough and invades northern Mexico, that way their paid stooges can whine to the UN about "evil aggressors" and "mperialists" while teh cartels continue beheading anyone who gets in their way.

[smjjames]

The whole smallpox deal they couldn't have even known about, considering the state of knowledge about diseases at the time.

[Cthulhu]

Uhhh, now correct me if I'm wrong, but how are the Beaver Wars not a direct result of our exploiting the new territory?

[Phmcw]

Cant help myself:

Ya'know, the "american" Indians immigrated here too (potential shit storm in 5...4...3...2...1...) and set about slaughtering each other the entire way vying for land..................(*seeks cover)

Well yes, no one stay in the same place forever. Still, they are the last owner still more or less alive as a culture. So "new" american are more migrant than they are, by that logic. And no nation is cleverer than another.
It wasn't a post praising native American or something. I just stated that this whole immigration hysteria is especially ridiculous in America. You should konw better. (Or not, given how it ended for the natives.)
And yes, we bought the fur and pretty much fucked their economy.

Well nikov , congratulation, but they where still migrant.
And you're still implying that all illegal immigrant are ready to smugle drugs.

[Darkone]

   Love all the "do it for their own good; they're practically slaves! they take jobs noone else will do because the jobs are bad!" crap. Because obviously they still go through the HELL of getting here to become a slave, rather than work a decent and respectable job as a white collar business man in their home country! The reason the jobs are ones that no one else will take is that a fair portion of Americans are too god damn prissy to take the job, and would rather stay unemployed. That's also pretty insulting both to slaves and the intelligence of illegal immigrants.
   Depending on the country in particular, minimum wage per month in the US can be higher than YEARLY wage for some people. In the Philippines (even though you don't see many illegal immigrants from there!  ) a fairly average wage is about $2 USD a day. That's under 1k a year if you work every single day. The spare change of a few people working minimum wage, living in a cheap place can be a HUGE income boost for families back home.

As much as I agree on immigration needing to be easier... fat chance actually seeing the powers that be make it happen.

[Nikov]

First, they were about as migrant as African slaves, because that's all the choice they had in the matter as prisoners of war. Furthermore...

And yes, we bought the fur and pretty much fucked their economy.

Well nikov , congratulation, but they where still migrant.
And you're still implying that all illegal immigrant are ready to smugle drugs.

Oh we're so fucking evil, engaging in trade with other cultures. We should have just kept our iron tools, guns, horses and decorative glass beads and let Russia keep its fur monopoly.

And you act like smuggling drugs is such an evil thing. I'm just saying its a way to get yourself out of some Mexican mudhole and into a place where sewage isn't in the streets. Why do you hate drugs so much?

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Cant help myself:

Ya'know, the "american" Indians immigrated here too (potential shit storm in 5...4...3...2...1...) and set about slaughtering each other the entire way vying for land..................(*seeks cover)

Well yes, no one stay in the same place forever. Still, they are the last owner still more or less alive as a culture. So "new" american are more migrant than they are, by that logic. And no nation is cleverer than another.
It wasn't a post praising native American or something. I just stated that this whole immigration hysteria is especially ridiculous in America. You should konw better. (Or not, given how it ended for the natives.)
And yes, we bought the fur and pretty much fucked their economy.

Well nikov , congratulation, but they where still migrant.
And you're still implying that all illegal immigrant are ready to smugle drugs.

well, yes they were the last owner, but specifically, the last victors of the constant conflict between tribes at the time the Europeans showed up. 

[Onlyhestands]

The whole smallpox deal they couldn't have even known about, considering the state of knowledge about diseases at the time.

Seriously? Medical knowledge at that time was lacking, but its not like like it was an innocent accident giving them the blankets. Honestly, it would have been a poor way to infect people, but it was certainly attempted. It probably didn't even work, but it was tried. Actually having looked up smallpox a bit it probably actually would have worked, and smallpox did infect the Native Americans laying siege to the fort, so  a good possibility it did work.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox

P.S. I will try to inocculate the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard's Method, and hunt them with English Dogs. Supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine.

[smjjames]

@SMJ:  Exactly.  I have a feeling though that the cartels wont completely remove the goverment in Mexico, but will instead use it as a figurehead and for international cover if the US decides enough is enough and invades northern Mexico, that way their paid stooges can whine to the UN about "evil aggressors" and "mperialists" while teh cartels continue beheading anyone who gets in their way.

I don't think it will come to the point of actually invading Mexico, the heat the government would get from that has the potential to bypass the PR heat the US got from the vietnam war and the current one. So it would have to be a choice of extreme last resort.

The whole smallpox deal they couldn't have even known about, considering the state of knowledge about diseases at the time.

Seriously? Medical knowledge at that time was lacking, but its not like like it was an innocent accident giving them the blankets. Honestly, it would have been a poor way to infect people, but it was certainly attempted. It probably didn't even work, but it was tried.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox

P.S. I will try to inocculate the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard's Method, and hunt them with English Dogs. Supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine.

Smallpox was already in North America by then, introduced by the spaniards. Anyways, whether colonel boquet (seriously? That kind of name would make it hard for a colonel to be taken seriously) had good intentions or not is debateable.

[Onlyhestands]

I mispelled his name, it was Bouquet, my bad.

How could he have had good intentions? He wanted to hunt the Indians with dogs, and infect them with smallpox(ideas which were given to him). Please note I'm not trying to lay too much blame on Bouquet, I don't know much about him and he seems about on par for his era. Certainly his desires to wipe out the Native Americans weren't unique.

Several other letters from the summer of 1763 show the smallpox idea was not an anomaly. The letters are filled with comments that indicate a genocidal intent, with phrases such as:
bullet   "...that Vermine ... have forfeited all claim to the rights of humanity" (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [149k]
bullet   "I would rather chuse the liberty to kill any Savage...." (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) [121k]
bullet   "...Measures to be taken as would Bring about the Total Extirpation of those Indian Nations" (Amherst to Sir William Johnson, Superintendent of the Northern Indian Department, 9 July) [229k]
bullet   "...their Total Extirpation is scarce sufficient Attonement...." (Amherst to George Croghan, Deputy Agent for Indian Affairs, 7 August) [145k]
bullet   "...put a most Effectual Stop to their very Being" (Amherst to Johnson, 27 August [292k]; emphasis in original).

Also, I'm not denying that it was very likely that the infection among the Indians was coincidence/"naturally" spread, but the intent was still there.

[AtomicPaperclip]

"I'm not sure exactly what the drafters of the (14th) amendment had in mind"

Well SOMEONE didn't take US history.

--
In the first 4 pages of this thread not one person made a positive remark about the suggestion of making an addition to the constitution. I haven't read the rest yet.

Is denying citizenship to [EDIT] the children of [/EDIT] illegal immigrants really so irrational? It would decrease incentive to come here and decrease issues with American citizens with illegal immigrant parents, who can't be deported because it would split up a family.

Which is why I sure as fuck won't be discussing it here.

Depending on whether you put the emphasis on I or here that has two quite different meanings.

That was so epic.

[Josephus]

Is denying citizenship to illegal immigrants really so irrational?

Man, by definition they are denied citizenship. That's why they're illegal immigrants, as opposed to just immigrants.

[Renault]

It would decrease incentive to come here

You realize even in itself thats a bad thing, right? If you set aside the xenophobia, you'll find most economists find immigration to be a positive thing for an economy. So its not really in the US' interest to reduce that incentive.