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[Cthulhu]

Damn, I wish I had known about that, that would've put him in his place.

[Aqizzar]

Nah, they'd continue on.  It would become a farcical hedging battle about how five miles is far enough and two blocks is not, and no they will not give you a definite distance of acceptability but they'll know it when they see it.

[RedKing]

Yeah, that was kinda my thought too. Although it should also be noted that until May 2008, there was a mosque ~1600 feet (0.3 mi) from Ground Zero. That had been there since 1970, and provided services to a number of Muslim financial sector employees.

I mean, the more you look at the facts in this, the more it just looks like a big ol ball of bullsh-t. A dog whistle for folks like Palin and Bachmann to gauge how many knee-jerk bigots they can count on in the next election.


EDIT: It occurred to me that the 14th Amendment is also the amendment with the "equal protection" clause. Repeal the whole thing, and you can squelch immigrants, gay marriage, the Americans with Disability Act, and the Civil Rights Act all in one fell swoop. Shit, no wonder they've got such a hard-on for the idea.

[smigenboger]

So, anyone know of any good Monarchies/Dictatorships that are handling their country well? Democracy isn't going too great at the moment.

[Aqizzar]

I would ask where you're getting that impression, but okay, you're disillusioned.  I take this thread and the general mockery this idea is getting from essentially every corner but where it came from as a very good sign of the efficacy of democracy, at least in defending the laws they already have.

[Retro]

This is depressing, but not really moreso than any other ridiculous American political shenanigans.

[RedKing]

I would ask where you're getting that impression, but okay, you're disillusioned.  I take this thread and the general mockery this idea is getting from essentially every corner but where it came from as a very good sign of the efficacy of democracy, at least in defending the laws they already have.

I wouldn't say that. Mockery and cynicism themselves aren't democracy in action. If you look at Czech and Russian literature and film, they mocked the hell out of their own systems. Because sometimes, you just gotta laugh. And not in a good way.

Moreover, if the majority opinion is a bad one...what is the sign of a working democracy? That the majority opinion prevails, or that a small group of elites and/or arcane laws beat out majority opinion?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Given that democracy literally means "Rule by will of the people", a working democracy would be a place where majority rule always wins. This doesn't make it good, but it does make it work.

[Aqizzar]

I think you guys base far too much of your assessment of politics on cynical platitudes like "just because it's the majority opinion doesn't make it good".  That doesn't make it automatically bad either, and I think spitting that line out at every opportunity stifles any real attempt to asses questions.

What democracies do better than anything, provided they make it past the initial shakedown generation, is remain pretty static politically.  American democracy in particular is designed to be static.  It takes a lot more than a few loud airheads and rent-a-mobs to change the Constitution, especially the parts that most people have been taught since gradeschool are the good parts.

[RedKing]

I think you guys base far too much of your assessment of politics on cynical platitudes like "just because it's the majority opinion doesn't make it good".  That doesn't make it automatically bad either, and I think spitting that line out at every opportunity stifles any real attempt to asses questions.

No, I base my assessment off personally witnessing three decades (and then some) of assorted American asshattery. And having taken graduate courses on public opinion and finding that it's been scientifically proven that the vast majority of the public--regardless of educational level--have no idea why they hold the opinions they do, will change their opinions at the drop of a hat in response to external stimuli, will rationalize like there's no tomorrow to create a justification for their opinion, and even if confronted with hard evidence that their opinion changed from a previous point in time, may in fact deny the existence of said previous opinion.

In short, public opinion is about as malleable as warm Silly Putty, and most opinions are essentially irrational, even if they don't seem so to the holder. If public opinion right now is against repealing the 14th Amendment, that's great. One effective campaign of demogoguery and/or one high-profile immigrant criminal may be all it takes to get a 10-15% opinion shift. It's cynical, but it's hardly a platitude.

What democracies do better than anything, provided they make it past the initial shakedown generation, is remain pretty static politically.  American democracy in particular is designed to be static.  It takes a lot more than a few loud airheads and rent-a-mobs to change the Constitution, especially the parts that most people have been taught since gradeschool are the good parts.

I agree that extreme changes tend not to occur in mature democracies, and that's heartening. But given that most people couldn't even tell you what rights are guaranteed under the Constitution (nor do they agree that all those rights *should* be protected)...I'm not so sanguine about "the people" as a responsible bulwark against extremism.

[smigenboger]

I guess you have to spell out sarcasm sometimes. I meant this new Republican idea is silly, and then separately wondering how the non-democracies are doing.

[nenjin]

Hey guys, remember in elementary school when we read all those uplifting and heroic stories about hard-working immigrants who floated here from Europe in the bilges of cargo ships and then worked the rest of their lives doing horrible jobs just to give their kids a chance at a better life?

Yeah, me neither.

Honestly, the Obama's a Secret Kenyan Mooslim thing was pretty pervasive at least during the election.  Even my otherwise rational parents bought into it.  My dad doesn't anymore, I assume my mom doesn't, it was all that excitement and tension making people dumb.

Speaking of the mosque, my heavily republican colleague (His Facebook political blurb reads "redneck conservative" to give you an idea") got all up on me when I mentioned that condemning an entire religion because of 9/11 was a little retarded.  He said "Alright, I'll just go and build a Shinto shrine near Pearl Harbor"

You really should ask him if he means the Kotohira Jinsha-Dazaifu Tenmangu (located about 5 miles from Pearl Harbor) or the Daijingu Temple (about 2 miles further away). I mean, considering that population of Hawaii is still over 50% of Japanese ancestry, and the islands aren't all that big, it's kinda retarded to think that there wouldn't be a Shinto shrine or two nearby.

Oh, and apparently the whole Pearl Harbor/Shinto shrine is one of those right-wing talking points that hit the Web before anyone actually thought to check to see if...you know, there actually IS a shrine nearby.

Dude, everyone knows that once American blood is shed somewhere, that place is ours. Omaha Beach. Iwo Jima. Vietnam. Afghanistan and Iraq. And of course Pearl Harbor. The fact someone else lives there is just a minor detail.

Seriously though, wasn't there a bugaboo about the Japanese building a memorial on Iwo Jima, because some U.S. veterans only wanted Americans to be memorialized there?

[RedKing]

I rather liked someone else's counter-example that I saw: Timmy McVeigh was an evangelical. We should ban all evangelical churches from downtown Oklahoma City.

[Outcast Orange]

Ugh... I expect the majority of this country to devolve back into apes any second now.

Why is the world progressing so very very slowly?

[nenjin]

I dare you to find a single rational person who honestly thinks Obama is a secret muslim kenyan. I hate the guy as a president, but such a theory is somthing I would expect to find in his WMG file. It probably is in there, even. Reactionaries are seeing slightly increased popularity due to the Tea Party, and this is the result of becoming egotistic about it, honestly thinking they can pass an amendment.

I always get a moment of joy when someone says something like this, and lo the news agencies actually have a story that is relevant.