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[ledgekindred]

I have been beefing up my defenses against sieges in my latest forts.  I've done my best to build fortifications where the enemies tend to gather in front of my gates.  I've build several towers to reach the various z-levels surrounding my walls.  I've put catapults wherever they are feasible so that they are outside of "omgz I'm scared" range for the operators, and in line with fortifications and enemies and on the same z-levels and rock stockpiles right next to them so the operators don't have to go far to reach ammo.  I have not just one but two Legendary Siege Operators - they fire those %$# things as fast as my archers can shoot arrows.

And they can't hit the broad side of a barn. 

At least according to the wiki, they will aim at invaders.  I realize that they have a narrow range of fire and can only hit targets on the same z-level. I have had three catapults set up with the invaders on the same z-level, standing around in tight groups, within about 10 degrees of exactly in front of the catapults.  I'm lucky if 1 out of 20 shots even goes near them with my Legendary operators running them.  I thought that maybe the operators couldn't actually see what they were aiming at, but if I moved them closer, then of course they got scared and ran away without firing anything.

I'd go ballista, since they would be more likely to do more damage if the operators could get the arrow to actually go through where the invaders were standing, but with the greater material cost of building ballista ammo, and judging from their accuracy with catapults, I'm hesitant to go that route.

Do catapults just suck that much and there's nothing can be done about it?

[Aspgren]

as I understand it ...

Ballista arrows go straight through the goblins and wound anything and everything in their path.

... catapults, however, only wound the square where the stone lands.. making them pretty much useless.

[ledgekindred]

as I understand it ...

Ballista arrows go straight through the goblins and wound anything and everything in their path.

... catapults, however, only wound the square where the stone lands.. making them pretty much useless.

Catapults seem to be pretty useless period.  Out of maybe 100 shots on my last siege I hit 4 humans.  Only two of them died. 

I'm afraid of having the same problem with ballistas.  Like I said, the material cost is significantly higher with metal arrowheads and wood (which my region is scarce in) needed, so if my siege operators are as good a shot with ballistas, it's just a waste of materials.  Will they at least aim ballistas at the right targets?

[Aspgren]

as I understand it ...

Ballista arrows go straight through the goblins and wound anything and everything in their path.

... catapults, however, only wound the square where the stone lands.. making them pretty much useless.

Catapults seem to be pretty useless period.  Out of maybe 100 shots on my last siege I hit 4 humans.  Only two of them died. 

I'm afraid of having the same problem with ballistas.  Like I said, the material cost is significantly higher with metal arrowheads and wood (which my region is scarce in) needed, so if my siege operators are as good a shot with ballistas, it's just a waste of materials.  Will they at least aim ballistas at the right targets?

I have no idea if they aim. but hey. it's not THAT expensive since the ballista arrows don't shatter on impact like the stones do. You can use them over and over and over ...... just make sure no haulers run out to play fetch.

[Curare]

As I understand it, the accuracy of a siege engine is determined by the quality of the parts used in its construction and (for ballistae) the quality of the ammunition. The skill level of the siege operator labor only determines how fast the dwarf can load and fire the siege engine.

Unfortunately this means that to have halfway useful seige engines you need highly skilled siege engineers (to build the parts) and siege operators (to fire them).

Also of note is that as recently as DF 31.10 ballista arrows did almost no damage, lightly bruising even unarmored enemies at best. Not sure if that's been fixed with the recent ranged combat updates as I haven't had an opportunity to fire my ballistae since then.

[ledgekindred]

I have no idea if they aim. but hey. it's not THAT expensive since the ballista arrows don't shatter on impact like the stones do. You can use them over and over and over ...... just make sure no haulers run out to play fetch.

Oh they don't break?  Well that changes things considerably!

As I understand it, the accuracy of a siege engine is determined by the quality of the parts used in its construction and (for ballistae) the quality of the ammunition. The skill level of the siege operator labor only determines how fast the dwarf can load and fire the siege engine.

Unfortunately this means that to have halfway useful seige engines you need highly skilled siege engineers (to build the parts) and siege operators (to fire them).

Also of note is that as recently as DF 31.10 ballista arrows did almost no damage, lightly bruising even unarmored enemies at best. Not sure if that's been fixed with the recent ranged combat updates as I haven't had an opportunity to fire my ballistae since then.

Yea and one of my problems in this area is I don't have much in the way of wood, so I can't have my engineers building dozens of parts to get decent ballistas built.  And my traders come with only limited amounts of wood.  Maybe it's time to start digging down...

[Cotes]

Not at all. They are very useful for training your siege dwarves to uses ballistas.

[dree12]

Normal wooden ballistae are horrible, because they use the same mechanics as weapons. (wood is severely underpowered ATM, the max_edge value is clearly wrong) You NEED metal, otherwise you won't get a scratch on the goblins. Catapults are blunt weapons, and apparently they go at the same speed no matter the weight, so slade is bound to get a perfect hit, while the lighter stones do nothing. Wood is an infinite resourse on all maps with caverns, and many times you'll find the wood growing TOO FAST as it grows every single soil layer on uncover of the caverns. Also, elves and humans are better traders if you need raw wood. Dwarves seem to fail to bring more than 4 wood of each type, but that might just be me.

[drayath]

My experience has been that properly set up ballista can be lethal, if you have metal arrowhead on the bolts.

A bolt hits everything in its path, and with bronze arrowhead vs iron iron typically breaks 2 bones and injures also injures a couple of locations.

To save the bolts you need to craft the shooting gallery, if the bolts falls a z level it will not be destroyed. If you build a wall at the end of the target area with channel in front of it (if it is a multilevel channel can drop the bolt back down into a storage area. If you are shooting down corridors have a channel/drop each side of the corridor (eg. crosssection:  wall - channel(remove ramp) - floor - floor - floor - channel (remove ramp) - wall), any bolts that do off target will hit the wall, fall into the channel and be saved.

You need the range just right, too far and the bolts miss too often, too short and the enemies dont remain in the line of fire long enough or your operator is scared.

Finally if you want to slightly abuse crap enemy ai, have a couple of cage traps in the the middle of a corridor, will trap the leader of a group. Rest of the group will just hang around in the corridor near the captured leader as ballista targets! Kills can still take ages, but a few hits will break there arms/legs/ribs allowing a miltia to easily kill them.

[ledgekindred]

I do have 20 iron ballista bolts built.  But I've been hesitant to use them based on the lack of accuracy from my Siege Operators.  Now I know they don't break, like the rocks shot from a catapult, I may decide to try to use them anyway.

I'm already abusing enemy AI by setting some cages up in front of the gates where they typically hang out.  I have retractable spikes in between cages so when they and loitering, I can continually spike them.  I was hoping that I could add extra pain with catapults, but that plan failed.  The corridor idea gives me a great idea though, based on this post:

 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62798.0

I'm currently building one of these goblin grinders and a lightbulb just went off.  If I make a C-shaped corridor, with the automated hatches at either end, I can carve fortifications onto the ends of the middle stretch and aim a ballista right down the corridor.  As the invaders are running back and forth down the corridor, and getting maimed by traps, I can also be firing ballista bolts down the corridor.  Adding the corners at either end will keep the bolts from accidentally impacting an open hatch and potentially causing all manner of problems.

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h^  ^  |
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h^  ^  |
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  Ballista

Now to architect and implement!

[Trekkin]

Hey! you stole my ubiquitous entry corridor!

The above was sarcasm. If you'd like the advice of someone who's built wayyyyy too many elaborate, evil-mastermind deathtrap corridors, take your design, stretch it out to around 120 tiles, and carve fortifications into every wall tile with channels in back of them. I normally run the entrance into my fort below the ballista battery via ramps just in front of the emplacement, so that i can hollow out the layer below and just have dwarves running missed bolts back all through the siege to the stockpile behind my ballistae.

Putting a trap on every tile makes your fort really close to impenetrable. Of course, if you'd rather make your design just sickeningly malicious, you can make the path a spiral of fortifications and put ballistae on two adjacent sides close to the nonshared corners.

[ledgekindred]

Well there goes my patent application... Prior Art and all   

I usually do a similar thing.  One entrance corridor full of traps, another bridge or otherwise blockable entrance that goes up when guests arrive.  The only available entrance is now the trap-lined corridor.

At the moment, even without ballistas, the goblin grinder idea is turning out to be extremely effective.  Even with only a short corridor they chew themselves up long before reaching the other end.  Adding ballistas can only make it more effective.

I _have_ been using catapults to train up my operators, that's why I have two Legendary siege operators.  Now I just need something useful for them to shoot.

I guess it's also about time to start digging down to get more wood.  (that sounds completely wrong...)

[Cheshire Cat]

ive tended to avoid traps since i got the game figured out. they just feel too good. havent really messed with them in df2010 yet.

the catapult training for siege dwarves mentioned above is the way to go. it also removes all that annoying stone you have lying all over your fortress. although, if you want to recover it you can just dig a channel below whatever wall the shots are hitting.

ive had tremendous fun with ballistas in 40d, using them in an entrance hall with even moderately skilled operatoes could skewer multiple invaders with a single shot. although, i recall the bolts used to get destryed when they hit a solid wall, and the way to get them back was to have a channel beneath whatever they were hitting, same as with archery targets.

also, it was worth having dwarves fire from behind fortifications with trenches keeping the goblins from getting too close, otherwise the siege operators would run away. again i dont know if that still happens in 2010, there was a devnote about it floating around.

im going to be following this thread, if someone could provide definative reports on ballistas and their effects with differet metal heads i would be grateful, as ive been avoiding them due to stories of bruised rather then dead goblins.