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[schismatise]

Ahh, excellent, thankyou. I was just about to ask how it is that your custom civs attack even without a war.

For anyone else wondering, http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Entity_token has alot of useful information as well.

Not sure if i want to take the easy way out and make elves and humans auto hostile, or try mucking around with ethics to generate "real" war. Hmmm. Question: Does being at war with an already automatically hostile civilization cause them to siege you even more often? I'm guessing it does, the world i'm playing now includes a war between dwarves and white tigermen, and they seem to be attacking quite frequently... although they are often the most numerous anyway.

It depends. Some enemies (Blendecs, Nagas, Hellfire Imps) are expected to use the same variety of copper/bronze/iron/silver that goblins do (Imps might have steel access)). Other civilizations have their weapon materials specified in the raws via custom reactions. Ferric Elves use Silver and Iron. Tigermen use only copper. Warwolves use only iron. I think that races with steel enabled actually pick instead from all weapons grade metals.

Also: races pick materials for their weapons apparently at random from the available pool. The best you can do is only allow a civ access to slashing weapons and materials with a good edge, or to blunt weapons and silver/copper. A more complex mod might have something like Crucible Iron and Crucible Bronze that can only be made into weapons and Hardened Copper or something that could only be made into armor, and use custom reactions to do something like have a race armed with Crucible Silver mauls and Hardened Iron armor.

I see. Interesting. I might be wrong, but i've been noticing all invaders having random materials for most of their equipment - definitely weapons and shields, not sure about armour. I've also noticed that warwolves only send wrestlers - so far i haven't seen any armour or weaponry on a warwolf. Could this be a potential bug in your mod then? Should tigermen only be using copper shields? Or is it simply a case of you can only do so much, and the outcome is somewhat random either way.

Oh well, i might just deal with that one, not sure i can be assed mucking around with the raws that much when i could instead be playing!

[darkflagrance]

Not sure if i want to take the easy way out and make elves and humans auto hostile, or try mucking around with ethics to generate "real" war. Hmmm. Question: Does being at war with an already automatically hostile civilization cause them to siege you even more often? I'm guessing it does, the world i'm playing now includes a war between dwarves and white tigermen, and they seem to be attacking quite frequently... although they are often the most numerous anyway.

I can't tell for sure if the auto-attack civilizations attack with a different frequency from civilizations at war with the player; they seem to at least have the same frequency as goblin sieges.

I see. Interesting. I might be wrong, but i've been noticing all invaders having random materials for most of their equipment - definitely weapons and shields, not sure about armour. I've also noticed that warwolves only send wrestlers - so far i haven't seen any armour or weaponry on a warwolf. Could this be a potential bug in your mod then? Should tigermen only be using copper shields? Or is it simply a case of you can only do so much, and the outcome is somewhat random either way.

I'm pretty sure that Tigermen are only using copper in the versions of Fortress Defense that I am playing. They should only have access to copper, and always have access to it independent of how world gen works out. Likewise, the last time I fought War Wolves, they brought many wrestlers, but I also recall some of their squads were armed. Though I doubt there are actual bugs, I'm going to retest when I have the time (ugh, the weekend is already over) Sadly, I don't have time to retest immediately due to the backlog of other work I let pile up.

Edit: Actually, warwolves do have a higher incidence of wrestlers than I had wanted, and I hypothesize it is due to their high striker skill, which overwrites the low levels of weapon ability they are spawned with.  Thanks for reporting that bug to me. Warwolf weapon masters spawn just fine however, because their weapon skill is high enough.

[schismatise]

I can't tell for sure if the auto-attack civilizations attack with a different frequency from civilizations at war with the player; they seem to at least have the same frequency as goblin sieges.

Indeed.. from memory, i'm starting to think the frequency is the same in any combination.

I'm pretty sure that Tigermen are only using copper in the versions of Fortress Defense that I am playing. They should only have access to copper, and always have access to it independent of how world gen works out. Likewise, the last time I fought War Wolves, they brought many wrestlers, but I also recall some of their squads were armed. Though I doubt there are actual bugs, I'm going to retest when I have the time (ugh, the weekend is already over) Sadly, I don't have time to retest immediately due to the backlog of other work I let pile up.

No stress. Like i said though, i have been killing alot of white tigermen lately, and melting lots and lots of leftover weapons and armour - if you like, i can upload a save of my current fort in which i am 99% sure white tigermen are using metals other than copper. From memory, i'm also pretty sure that this is not a once-off, and the other civs i've been fighting lately (nagas, jotunar and badgermen) are also using a random assortment of metals. I was starting to think it must be something i've changed in the raws that is causing the issue for me only, but as i mentioned earlier, the only modding i've done is adding custom milling/brewing reactions. Oh and i'm using an SDL binary patch for the crystal glass bug.

In reguards to the warwolves, it's probably just a matter of i haven't had enough of them yet - so far i've only ever had one siege from them before my fort has ended.

[darkflagrance]

It can't hurt to upload a save. I'll take a look when I don't have a dozen books to read through before wednesday 

[schismatise]

Heh, all good. I'll let you know if i have any further, more definitive findings.

Edit: Here's the save: http://oron.com/wyto06w55o17

I had to upload it literally 4 times, DFFD got stuck at 99% twice, and then i forgot to log in to oron before uploading the 3rd attempt, lol. Stupid internet.

Save of 0.31.25 with Fortress Defense II v9 and custom milling/brewing reactions.

Invaders using random assortment of metals instead of their properly allocated metal (eg. White Tigermen with bronze/steel/silver spears instead of only copper).

F1 = surface, note the dead tigerman axemen/macemen (in the process of being dumped into lava, along with some goblins).

Stocks -> Weapons, note the (small) assortment of halberds/morningstars (the rest were recently melted).

Stocks -> Shields, note the assortment of materials (all from the recent siege, except the adamantine shields which my speardwarves are currently using).

Two recent goblin ambushes may be skewing some of the information slightly (i think the flails/whips and probably some shields belong to them, as well as the bows), so nothing is definitive, but with the amount of tigermen who died in the recent siege (at least 2 squads), one would imagine there should be an excess of copper.

If you want more definitive results, just leave it running in the background and wait for the next siege i guess?

Hope that helps.

PS. Check out the kill list of my militia commander ^^

[darkflagrance]

Heh, all good. I'll let you know if i have any further, more definitive findings.

Edit: Here's the save: http://oron.com/wyto06w55o17

I had to upload it literally 4 times, DFFD got stuck at 99% twice, and then i forgot to log in to oron before uploading the 3rd attempt, lol. Stupid internet.

Save of 0.31.25 with Fortress Defense II v9 and custom milling/brewing reactions.

Invaders using random assortment of metals instead of their properly allocated metal (eg. White Tigermen with bronze/steel/silver spears instead of only copper).

F1 = surface, note the dead tigerman axemen/macemen (in the process of being dumped into lava, along with some goblins).

Stocks -> Weapons, note the (small) assortment of halberds/morningstars (the rest were recently melted).

Stocks -> Shields, note the assortment of materials (all from the recent siege, except the adamantine shields which my speardwarves are currently using).

Two recent goblin ambushes may be skewing some of the information slightly (i think the flails/whips and probably some shields belong to them, as well as the bows), so nothing is definitive, but with the amount of tigermen who died in the recent siege (at least 2 squads), one would imagine there should be an excess of copper.

If you want more definitive results, just leave it running in the background and wait for the next siege i guess?

Hope that helps.

PS. Check out the kill list of my militia commander ^^

I took the weekend to play your fort and found the cause of the problem: the individual entity file for tigermen is out of date. Going to fix that and the warwolf issue together, along with anything else I find when I do another check.

Side note: Nice fort! I love the organization of industries and dwarves and the battalions of marksdwarves :p I got all your legendary speardwarves killed by naga bowmen though  Had to rely on the random axe, mace, and swordddwarves among your haulers.

[Blah]

Now I'm curious to see this fort as well, but Oron doesn't like me. The download fails due to server terminating connection halfway through. Any chance to get this uploaded to a better host, like ifile.it?

[darkflagrance]

Denied! The problem was not with the tigerman entity!

After my long nap, from which I just woke up, I delved a little deeper, and I found that the problem was that schismatise didn't install the mod correctly. You need to copy-paste the reaction_fdmetals.txt file as well, otherwise many entities will have undefined reactions resulting, no doubt, in the use of all metals including steel. Having not encountered this bug before, I didn't at first realize what was causing the steel-using tigermen. The errorlog also states that the other key materials files are missing.

Unfortunately, I suspect that re-adding that files that are missing will require a world regen.

I will still make appropriate changes to the warwolves (and elephants) and reupload.

[schismatise]

I took the weekend to play your fort and found the cause of the problem: the individual entity file for tigermen is out of date. Going to fix that and the warwolf issue together, along with anything else I find when I do another check.

Side note: Nice fort! I love the organization of industries and dwarves and the battalions of marksdwarves :p I got all your legendary speardwarves killed by naga bowmen though  Had to rely on the random axe, mace, and swordddwarves among your haulers.

BLASPHEMY! Actually, i'm impressed you managed to get them killed at all, those guys were beast.

And yes, my fort organisation often bears the brunt of my obsessive compulsive nature

Denied! The problem was not with the tigerman entity!

After my long nap, from which I just woke up, I delved a little deeper, and I found that the problem was that schismatise didn't install the mod correctly. You need to copy-paste the reaction_fdmetals.txt file as well, otherwise many entities will have undefined reactions resulting, no doubt, in the use of all metals including steel. Having not encountered this bug before, I didn't at first realize what was causing the steel-using tigermen. The errorlog also states that the other key materials files are missing.

Unfortunately, I suspect that re-adding that files that are missing will require a world regen.

I will still make appropriate changes to the warwolves (and elephants) and reupload.

Ah, now that makes much more sense. I suspected as much, but i had checked everything and was forced to conclude the problem was outside my influence.

I can see now where i went wrong - when i first installed your mod i was a complete mod noob, and so i read the instructions *very* carefully and followed them to the letter, and unfortunately the wording in the instructions for installing only *some* of the races only mentions the creature and entity files - reaction_dfmetals.txt is only mentioned in the basic instructions I guess noone elses who installed the mod in this way is as pedantic as me? lol.

Good to know i can fix that though. No worries about that old fort - i've made several new worlds since, been playing around with the orc mod, and per your advice, modding elves and humans to be auto-hostile

Now I'm curious to see this fort as well, but Oron doesn't like me. The download fails due to server terminating connection halfway through. Any chance to get this uploaded to a better host, like ifile.it?

Oron works for me because i have an account, probably. Fortunately for you, i happen to have my own webspace! It's uploading now, should be available at this link within about 10 minutes of this post:

http://schismatise.com/files/schismatise_2012-01-30_region1.zip

[darkflagrance]

I can see now where i went wrong - when i first installed your mod i was a complete mod noob, and so i read the instructions *very* carefully and followed them to the letter, and unfortunately the wording in the instructions for installing only *some* of the races only mentions the creature and entity files - reaction_dfmetals.txt is only mentioned in the basic instructions I guess noone elses who installed the mod in this way is as pedantic as me? lol.

Acknowledged. When I prepare the next version of Fortress Defense, I shall take care to pay attention to the wording of the installations.

As for the deaths of the spearmen, it was due to exceedingly poor planning and troop arrangement and a loooooot of enemy archers. I believe Likot survived; he had 130+ kills when I finished testing 

However, War Elephants are proving more problematic to mod and test than I had imagined. I'm going to be delayed while I re-imagine and test their current implementation.

[Lpfn1822]

Love the idea of the mod. I tried to install it, can't seem to get the graphics going when applied to vanilla DF.
Tried to apply the mod to vanilla DF+Mayday graphics, at population 20 now, only a kobold has attacked.
Is there a full package available anywhere? Full package being Dwarf Fortress + This mod + The graphics installed.

[darkflagrance]

None at the moment pending mod revision, but I can prepare a temporary one shortly.

[Lpfn1822]

That would be great man.
I'm usually not this bad at applying mods, maybe I'm having an off day=/

[darkflagrance]

Linky here:link

[Lpfn1822]

Thanks a ton man