Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions  (Read 804 times)

gramks2k

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« on: July 30, 2010, 02:03:14 pm »

Planning on building a simple tower for my dorfs to use in the case of a goblin assault on the exterior. Here are a few questions I have that I couldn't find in the wiki...

1) Archer range, how large of an area can they defend.
2) Do archers need to be on the same z plane to shoot enemies.
3) How good are fortifications at stopping the enemy's attacks.
4) How can I train up my archers skill.
5) Is there any way that the enemy will be able to bust into this tower to use it to access my Fortress.
Logged

Symmetry

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 02:21:58 pm »

2)nope
3)effectiveness of fortifications dpends on distance, if yo're next to them they let through all(?) attacks, if far away almost none.  Don't let the goblins stand next to your fortifications!
4)Archery targets, a designated training room from one with squad training enabled, and bone bolts.
5)constructed walls are safe, doors can be destroyed by trolls if the goblins bring one.  goblins can't fly :)

1) I wish I knew.  seems like 15 squares?
Logged

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 02:36:29 pm »

Something to think about: the higher the shooters, the shorter the range.
I know this doesn't make sense in real life, but in DF a z-level counts as distance too.
Or so I've heard.
Logged

Arekis

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 03:33:14 pm »

Fun fact: from my experience, elite bowmen/crossbowmen can shoot through a fortification from something like 15 tiles away and 1 z-level below with deadly accuracy.
Logged

Psieye

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2010, 04:08:37 pm »

Fun fact 2: siegers will happily empty out all their quivers on random pets you put in a pit at your entrance. Let them have their fun, then return the Fun to them.

Incidentally, if you build your tower to have no doors at all, then they cannot get control of it. Dwarves should enter towers from the underground. Doors into towers at the surface is for human worshipers.
Logged
Military Training EXP Analysis
Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Mephansteras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Forger of Civilizations
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2010, 04:20:04 pm »

In 40d, archers had a range of about 20 tiles including vertical ones. However, since fortifications are more effective the further away the enemies are, height is still useful. I tend to use 3-5 story towers.

And while elite archers can still smack your guys, I've seen regular archers fire a hail of arrows at my marksdwarves without even scratching them behind their fortifications so they're definitely useful. In one tower I had some invaders must have fired off dozens of bolts at my defenders without hitting them, while they slaughtered some stray animals that were higher up in the tower but not behind fortifications.
Logged
Civilization Forge Mod v2.80: Adding in new races, equipment, animals, plants, metals, etc. Now with Alchemy and Libraries! Variety to spice up DF! (For DF 0.34.10)
Come play Mafia with us!
"Let us maintain our chill composure." - Toady One

Arekis

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 04:27:23 pm »

Does the height of the tower give cumulative advantage to defense?  Or is it just more distance?  I was dismayed that the elite archer had ~100% accuracy with each of his shots through the fortifications from that distance. 

I don't think regular archers even tried firing through fortifications (31.12) the few times I encountered them.
Logged

Mephansteras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Forger of Civilizations
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 04:29:24 pm »

It's just more distance. The advantage that height gives is that you're guaranteed to be at least X tiles away from an invader. Moats can achieve the same thing, although I personally find high towers more appealing.

Not sure about the current version. In 40d I know they'd fire back.
Logged
Civilization Forge Mod v2.80: Adding in new races, equipment, animals, plants, metals, etc. Now with Alchemy and Libraries! Variety to spice up DF! (For DF 0.34.10)
Come play Mafia with us!
"Let us maintain our chill composure." - Toady One

Shrike

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 04:41:31 pm »

Towers (with fortifications, especially) have the disadvantage of creating blind spots, since you can't fire through the floor.

Keeping enemies away needs a wall or moat, the former creates more blind spots... so take a page from medieval warfare and combine moats with towers.
Logged

gramks2k

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2010, 04:52:30 pm »

Thanks for all the input. The tower is well on its way, if only they would stop partying in the meeting hall... Damned Dorfs.

The drawbridge at the main entrance is complete and linked up with a lever in the meeting hall. I figured that there will always be someone idling about in there to pull it in the case of a siege.
Logged

Shrike

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 05:52:57 pm »

Thanks for all the input. The tower is well on its way, if only they would stop partying in the meeting hall... Damned Dorfs.

The drawbridge at the main entrance is complete and linked up with a lever in the meeting hall. I figured that there will always be someone idling about in there to pull it in the case of a siege.

Exactly. Your control room/lockdown levers should always be somewhere:
1) close to a meeting area for fastest pulling
2) Away from the accesses to the surface  so that lever pulls aren't performed by various animals or prevented by hostiles scaring the dwarves away from the levers.
Logged

nickbii

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2010, 12:48:08 am »

Planning on building a simple tower for my dorfs to use in the case of a goblin assault on the exterior. Here are a few questions I have that I couldn't find in the wiki...

1) Archer range, how large of an area can they defend.
2) Do archers need to be on the same z plane to shoot enemies.
3) How good are fortifications at stopping the enemy's attacks.
4) How can I train up my archers skill.
5) Is there any way that the enemy will be able to bust into this tower to use it to access my Fortress.
My experience with archers is almost entirely 40d, because they were so buggy in early releases of DF2010. Right now I have a squad of archers in training for DF2010, and they apparently do train sometimes, but no actual combat experience.

1) They can defend a very sizeable area. On small maps (2x2 embark squares) I could control the entire map with a handful of towers. Each had a tiny squad (3), but they were damn effective.

2) No. Mine never are. They're always on the second floor, behind fortifications. As they also always have moats putting them in a tower is probably actually a dumb idea, but shooting from towers is WAY cooler then shooting from ground level.

3) Against normal enemies they have never failed me. The trouble is elite crossbowman. Fortifications are useless against those guys. Fortunately those guys are only squad leaders, and they don't appear often. When they do appear you have to scramble, tho. Otherwise you'll lose your archers.

4) My three archery targets are apparently being used for some training in my current fortress. I made a barracks and assigned my archer-squad to it, and occasionally I see extra bolts lying around there.

A strategy I used in 40d that will still work is an arena. You make a special room enemies can't get out of, but your archers can shoot into. The easiest way to do this is make a normal room, but put fortification on one of the walls. Then you put captured gobboes in their, hook their cages up to a level, station your squad outside, and massacre the poor guys. You'll have to disarm archers, and Trolls could break out even if you lock the door, but everybody else should die easy.

5) In 40d my standard garrison tower was impenetrable. There was a moat, no door, and entrance was solely through stairs to the main fort. The moat was usually dry.

Gobboes can't fly, but they can ride flying creatures. You can  minimize the ability of flyers to get into your fort by building roofs, but I have yet to find a way to build a roof without at least one square of access for builders, which means one square of access for flyers.

Again this shouldn't be a problem very often, especially if you plan for it. They don't usually bring more then one squad on Giant Bats, and a squad of 7 Crossbowdwarves and 3 Axedwarves should be able to hold out long enough for your the rest of your troops to arrive. In theory. Remember: No combat experience with bow-dwarves in DF2010.
Logged

Organum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2010, 12:53:56 am »

If you're building multilevel towers the walls on the level below will form a floor on the level above them. I build an up stair on one of these floors, a down stair above it, and then construct my roof that way. When the roof is finished I remove the stairs and build a wall where they stood. This leaves no way for fliers to sneak in.
Logged
If dwarves decided to live in trees like hippies, they'd still do it better than the elves.

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Ranged defense, a few tower and range questions
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2010, 01:27:40 am »

Or, you know, build stairs to the roof, and put a hatch on it, then lock it. Kinda like doors.

I don't think gobbos or their flying mounts are usually building destroyer or lock pickers (thieves don't count).
Logged