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Author Topic: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.  (Read 16069 times)

nenjin

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 02:16:40 pm »

Yerp. Gamers by and large don't seem to ultimately give a shit. There's no relevant moral hard point for them, not like, I dunno, mink coats, hiring illegal workers, ect...

And the game industry has learned the exact same thing as the movie industry. Put enough money into it, make enough money back. Except that video games have a far longer shelf life for their content, and I think their money ultimately goes farther.

They've got so much money at this point though, they could sink 20 million into a game, have it tank utterly, and they'd still be good for another title. Unlike movies, I think video games have a presumption of worth with their targeted demographic. That always translates into enough sales to convince someone they made the right choice.
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2010, 02:22:16 pm »

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Maybe the choice quotes of the event, though, came when Kotick talked about Activision’s developers; you know, the guys who actually make the stuff he gets so rich from. You’d think he’d have a bit of respect for them, right? Oh no, Kotick’s goal over the past 10 years has been – you couldn’t make this up – “to take all the fun out of making video games.” How? By instilling a culture of “scepticism, pessimism, and fear” amongst the company’s staff based around the economic depression and an incentive program that rewards “profit and nothing else”.

Does anyone have this quote in context?
I remember reading it, back when it was plastered everywhere. It didn't sound any better in context, which was, if memory serves, something along the lines of "when I came here, everyone was great at making games, but all those programmers and artists didn't know shit about accounting and management. I'm proud to have taken all the fun out of making games". The sentiment is both sadistic and nonsensical (complaining that people whose jobs are not accounting or management don't know how to be accountants or managers, but are otherwise quite skilled at the job they fucking have), bordering on Stupid Evil.

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There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.

That's non-evil capitalism.
Why was I included there? I mildly agreed that heusoo should stop starting threads like this, but if anything that quote only serves to emphasize my argument against Kotick by contrasting with his methods ("lowest quality, highest prices").

I was wondering if it sounded any better in context, because that was heavily outside it.  Oh well.

And I wasn't clear- I was agreeing with you, and thought you might like to see that quote because it did support your point.
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 02:23:28 pm »

Am I the only one who hates Activision and sticks by it? It's been years since I bought anything of theirs.
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Grakelin

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 02:34:19 pm »

This was a talk at the Deutsche Bank Security Technologies Conference. Not at E3. So the part where he spends a lot of time talking about profits and operating margins make perfect sense. He's actually just being an economist. Raising the prices on Modern Warfare 2, for example, would make a higher profit in his mind, because people would still buy the same amount of them. It's not actually being evil. He's not trying to bring you down. Getting a hot title on release is already a luxury, whether the kids with the expendable incomes want to believe it is or not. So his entire discussion about pricing and profitability is something I have no issue with.

Quote
Maybe the choice quotes of the event, though, came when Kotick talked about Activision’s developers; you know, the guys who actually make the stuff he gets so rich from. You’d think he’d have a bit of respect for them, right? Oh no, Kotick’s goal over the past 10 years has been – you couldn’t make this up – “to take all the fun out of making video games.” How? By instilling a culture of “scepticism, pessimism, and fear” amongst the company’s staff based around the economic depression and an incentive program that rewards “profit and nothing else”.

This does seem like poor management, if I'm reading it properly, but I'd like to see the direct quote, if anybody has it, just to make sure. Kotick should know that in times of economic depression, entertainment industries flourish (though, this has been tested on film and theatre, and not video games, seeing as how the last major economic depression we had took place when video games were still quite fledgling. Then again, Mario came out during that time).


This is a huge problem in the film industry, music industry and TV industry. Art and entertainment should not be beholden to profit, or in the thrall of buisnessmen.

The really sad thing is that stuff like this creates a huge sense of dissatisfaction within the audience, in this case gamers. Noone wants to be told they're being treated as a walking wallet, or that their entertainment is entirely designed around getting their money, instead of entertaining them.

Entertainment and art should be an interaction between the artist/entertainer, and the audience. Both benefit from the relationship. When you throw a buisnessman into the mix he'll get between the two, mediating how they interact. "Make games shorter, pay more for this, you need more peripherals, this game sold well so make it like that, etc" and eventually only he's benefitting in any real way. Again, look at the music and film industries to see how this plays out.


I emboldened the most correct part of your post! I'm a Drama major, and so I like to imagine I know at least a little bit about this subject. Here's the major issue, though.

Money is important to the entertainment industry. Nobody is giving massive grants that uphold any of these industries (theatre probably gets the largest, here in Canada, but Stratford is only given somewhere around 3-7% (based on what I heard Antoni Cimolino, the General Director, say during a lecture once), which is hardly the steel girders holding it afloat).

Instead, industries have to provide people with things they want to pay money to experience. It's all well and good if you have produced something amazing and fantastic that changes the way people look at the world, but if you don't exceed the gross cost of producing it, you're going to starve.

If people didn't want to play these games, the businessman would try to direct it somewhere else. But marketability is important to all entertainment industries. I paid $100 to go see Christopher Plummer perform in the Tempest, even though I consider the Tempest to be Shakespeare's worst play. Christopher Plummer was likely the best thing about that play, but I felt it was kind of lacking in all other respects. Yet, if another amazing actor with sixty years of experience showed up at Stratford to perform in an equally subpar play, I would still pay $100 for it.

With video games, you have to stop and consider the great, revolutionary games we claim to have been playing, and put them beside the games we consider to be mainstream garbage (though I don't agree that there is a mainstream garbage. Economists aren't making these games bad, even if they do sometimes force a rush job or push for a different direction). Modern Warfare 2 costs something like $60.00, doesn't it? The entire Civilization 4 Package costs about $40.00. Warcraft 3's Battlechest costs around $40.00. With tax, Mount and Blade cost me $40.00. Braid cost me about $10 or $20, and people still claimed it was overpriced.

Would you have paid $60.00 for Braid? You can't argue that it had a very small development team, because the fellow who developed it put in $200,000 into its production, and the game is about as complete as it could ever be. The mechanics are done, there are plenty of levels, the graphics are smooth and just how the designer wanted them to look. This game is done, finished, locked in. But nobody is going to pay $60.00 for it. Love and care and joy went into it, but I will get about twelve hours of enjoyment out of it, overall, whereas the other four examples I gave would give me far more, especially when their multiplayer capacities were thrown into the mix.

Art and Entertainment Industries are businesses. If they're not making money, they'll stop making games. Bobby Kotick isn't killing the industry. If anything, he might actually be expanding it. Business Majors are taught to expand and invest, to make even more money. There are a lot of Computer Science majors who are going to need to find jobs within 1-4 years. Too many, in fact. If Kotick's strategy creates enough capital to open up three more studios and employ three hundred more of these guys, I'll be okay with that. We'll always have our arthouse games and our blockbuster games.


Incidentally, this was published in September, 2009.

Like, holy shit, old news or what.

And the game industry has learned the exact same thing as the movie industry. Put enough money into it, make enough money back. Except that video games have a far longer shelf life for their content, and I think their money ultimately goes farther.

The film industry is notorious for being full of bad investments. Putting a lot of money into a film doesn't always work. In fact, it's often better to put less money into it, unless you are absolutely sure it will bring an audience. Inception couldn't have had a $150 million budget if Christopher Nolan had never directed Dark Knight.
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nenjin

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 02:51:07 pm »

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The film industry is notorious for being full of bad investments. Putting a lot of money into a film doesn't always work. In fact, it's often better to put less money into it, unless you are absolutely sure it will bring an audience. Inception couldn't have had a $150 million budget if Christopher Nolan had never directed Dark Knight.

True, but compare that to how much cred you need to make a $20 million dollar game, or the fact that dev houses don't have the same star power as top directors. (Will Wright, Sid Meiers and a few others withstanding. But those guys actually own stock in their own companies.)

Subtract money for talent (since top actors get insane salaries, unlike top developers, who get screwed by Activision into not even getting their bonuses without litigation), and I think the rationale holds true. Of course you want to spend less if you can, but substance in video games can be replaced with "flash", and it still plays. People may be jaded about CGI, and 3D in movies, but we still gobble up the newest video game visuals even as we lament that they seem more important than content.

So I think money does equal success in the main-stream gaming media. If you can spend $500,000 and make $1 million, dandy. If you can spend $2 million and make $3 million back, even better, regardless if that's $1.5 million spend solely on artists, animators and voice actors. Dev houses like Bioware are further proving that money spent = money returned, once you've crossed that line of audience recognition. Blizzard, Activision, Bioware, Infinity Ward, Valve all have crossed that line. (Incidentally, L4D is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. A million dollar+ title, where tons and tons of money went purely into visuals and aesthetics. L4D without that mulit-million dollar shine wouldn't have done half as well, I believe.)

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but I'd like to see the direct quote, if anybody has it, just to make sure. Kotick should know that in times of economic depression, entertainment industries flourish (though, this has been tested on film and theatre, and not video games, seeing as how the last major economic depression we had took place when video games were still quite fledgling. Then again, Mario came out during that time).

Not going to look for it, but it was essentially "fun time is over. We're here to make money, not have fun." It's so famous a line I imagine it will be chiseled on his tombstone.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 02:56:35 pm by nenjin »
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Calhoun

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2010, 03:10:55 pm »

Am I the only one who hates Activision and sticks by it? It's been years since I bought anything of theirs.

I could care less. It's the game that matters to me. I won't buy any of Ubisofts PC titles, because they DRM gimps the games, but if I wanted to play one of their games, I might still buy a console version.

I bought Prototype because it was a good game. And I plan on buying Goldeneye 007 remake, because the original gave me many hundreds of hours of fun with my extended family. It is priced normally, so I will buy it.

Kotick is an asshole, but why should I let my fun be ruined by that man or anyone else?
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nenjin

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2010, 03:29:27 pm »

There are some valid reasons to boycott a publisher (not EA specifically.) For example, Ubisoft's DRM is pretty much a deal breaker for me. Buying their game validates their decision to use that version of DRM. Hence, regardless of whether a game is fun or not, buying it is a problem for me. You could make the same argument for Blizzard/Activision sales and "Kotick-ism", but that relationship isn't nearly the same.

Kotik's influence isn't really felt, I think, when you're actually playing the game. The same cannot be said when Ubisoft's DRM servers died and everyone playing AC2 went "What the holy fuck?!"
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Calhoun

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2010, 03:33:48 pm »

But thats where the DRM impacts the game, as I said, I'd never buy one of UBI's PC titles.

Kotick doesn't affect my gameplay one bit, neither does the publisher either.
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2010, 03:42:11 pm »

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Blizzard has always been unoriginal, what with two of their... three? big series being blatant clones of warhammer/warhammer 40k, and I've seen no indication they ever listened to their fans, though admittedly I've only seen them as Actiblizzard, taking actions entirely in line with Kotick's insanity.
They may be unoriginal, but they made some damn good games in their time.
Aye. The Lost Vikings, Diablo's I & II, Starcraft, WoW, Warcraft. I will grant that they may be blatant ripoffs, but they were quite fun.

When I say they had a VERY good track record, I meant that when they balance things online, they do tend to listen to their players. For example, DII's Necromancers. In the original version, they were beastly when you maxed out their skeleton lines. However, with the sheer numbers of skeletons you could put out, people on slow connections were getting horrible lag. So they listened to their players and cut back, and fine tuned it a bit, so you could have at best 20 skeletons and such, but they would be much more powerful. And everyone was happy, well except the necromancer who loved being followed by 120 minions at a time, but even he was alright with it.

THAT was the sort of thing Blizzard used to do and do well. They've done many similar things with WoW.

Kotik's influence IS starting to be felt, especially in WoW, and SC2. RealID and Facebook intergration for the former, and buying the same game thrice and all sorts of other little profit makers shoved in there for the latter.

And yeah, it was probably Ubisoft I was thinking of. For some reason, I thought Bioware = Bioshock and remembered that fiasco with the DRM blocking every other game you owned. I try not to keep track.
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nenjin

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2010, 03:51:30 pm »

Eh. WoW and SC2 aren't my bag, so I don't have any real basis to judge Kotik other than what he says and those pricing models. I'm waiting personally for D3 before I start really trying to pick apart his influence. RealID ect... much of the objectionable stuff will be optional, to me/for me, will be optional.

If I were in the mood to boycott based solely on the platform/delivery system and all the annoyances involved....I would have boycotted Steam and Games for Windows Live like....2 years ago. Blizzard/Activision is actually late to the game on those fronts.

So again, there's a difference between what affects your game...and how many hoops you have to jump through/play along with to actually play the game. I have a far higher tolerance for latter than the former.

Although I will say that I'm getting MIGHTY tired of new account names, passwords and restrictions on every new game I buy. I must have close to 100 game accounts out there in the world since 2000, and after people failing to reclaim their old Borderlands/Company of Heroes accounts....yeah. Starting to get real old. Remember the days when you clicked MP, clicked a server and you were golden? I guess that's why I prefer Steam, where many of the games accept it's master account handling. (Incidentally, those that don't are the ones people always seem to have trouble with.)

It's getting really annoying to have to sign up two and three places at a time for some games. "Please make your [Publisher] account." "Please make your [Game] account."
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2010, 04:42:52 pm »

And I wasn't clear- I was agreeing with you, and thought you might like to see that quote because it did support your point.
Sorry, I misread it. :/
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2010, 12:43:20 am »

This is a huge problem in the film industry, music industry and TV industry. Art and entertainment should not be beholden to profit, or in the thrall of buisnessmen.

I think the music industry gets it right. Good music, good video clips, rich artists, yeah... about right. And the film industry, well... it doesn't let a pursuit of profits get in the way. The movies I buy are well worth the money I pay from them. Honestly, I don't get as riveting an experience from my $8 in the games industry as I get from the movie industry.

Disney (among many others) seems to have film making done right. They're greedy bastards too, but at least their customers really enjoy themselves.

In the games industry, profit chasing seems to get directly in the way of well.. entertainment. Indie games are a way stronger force in the games industry, compared to indie music or indie film. I mean, gawd, you hear of publishers screwing the industry all the time. The very reason I went into electrical engineering rather than game development was because there's just not a single game company that I want to work with.

Blizzard, well.. they're unoriginal, they make only above average quality games, but they seem to take an existing idea and get it right. WoW was interesting one... they took a very known formula, a slightly obsolete engine, and made a truly fun game out of it. They treat their customers and employees very well, though they're forced to screw them sometimes, thanks to stockholders. I'd compare their success a bit to Disney. Not my thing, but millions of people love their games, and I'd say they're doing it the best out of every game company.
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Grakelin

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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2010, 01:02:07 am »

Muz: Disney decided to go for profit over quality when they made Lilo & Stitch, and it ended the Disney Renaissance. I actually read about this in a business textbook, where the author was glowing about how smart they were (I guess he never saw any of the movies or looked past Lilo & Stitch's profit). Disney had always made a massive profit on every film they produced between 1989 and 2001, but the marketing team realized they could make even MORE of a profit by cutting back on some of the 'useless details' in the movies which were costing several million to produce.

What happened was that Lilo & Stitch did indeed make a huge profit, but only because people were expecting what they had seen from the business before. Throughout the rest of the decade, Disney's critical success languished, and they ended up making less money with future titles than they had during the 90s. The level of quality put into the animation was no longer there. Some of the plotlines were still strong, but it was never as good as the Renaissance again.

A smart businessman should use this as precedent. Quality entertainment will bring a profit. Bobby Kotick hasn't screwed over the quality. Sure, he's charging lots for Guitar Hero, but Guitar Hero is actually pretty good. RealID doesn't affect your experience while playing any Blizzard games (I'm not sure if it's his idea in the first place, and I kind of doubt it). Having to buy expansion packs for Starcraft 2 won't overly matter, in my mind, because we would do it even if they hadn't announced it (I don't know, I guess some people still think they're packaging three different campaigns and charging the same for each one without adding new content, or they somehow feel that expansion packs ruin games). If Kotick is the financial mastermind he says he is, he won't cut back on quality in exchange for profit. Because it doesn't work, unless you intend to retire immediately afterwards.

Other than that, I don't have much to comment on everything else that has been said, except that Nenjin mentioned big star names being a factor in films. In video games, we have top billing development companies instead of just stars, which makes sense because we never get to see the people making video games, but we see the people in movies. So names like Bioware, Blizzard, or 2kGames are the video game equivalent of Steve Carrell, Helen Mirren, or Robert Downey, Jr.

I also don't feel that indie games are bigger in their industry than indie music or indie films. Indie films have their own festival and there is a major channel on television dedicated to them. Indie music has its own 'scene' of people who listen primarily to it and identify themselves by it.

Indie games get a section on Direct2Drive and Steam.

I think the popularity of indie games is just riding the coattails of indie music and indie films.

I agree about money, though. Putting money INTO a piece of entertainment will result in drawing money OUT of it. Cutting back on your budget in regards to quality will not sell your product, and will not make you a profit.
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2010, 01:08:53 am »

On Guitar Hero, yeah, it's good. But a lot of people are unhappy with Activision trying to completely milk it out by churning out Guitar Hero games faster than people can win them. It's a short term move. People will get very sick of them and within a few years, the "Guitar Hero" genre will be gone.

Then again, people will get sick of them sooner or later, and he's just churning them out to make money while the trend still lasts.
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Re: I hate Bobby Kotick and he is killing the industry.
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 01:24:03 am »

Am I the only one who hates Activision and sticks by it? It's been years since I bought anything of theirs.
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