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[IronyOwl]

-super snip-

Is this suppose to show something?  I know what I post.

You said you were helping town a lot, and said you "did more than that" when I said the majority of your activity was either useless or that discussion with Mr.Person. I'm only counting two posts in which you were genuinely useful beyond that incident- when you voted Mr.Person for defending me, and when you voted me for waffling over lynching Org. The impression I got from your lengthy conversation was also that you were the one dragging it out and refusing to be clear and useful with it, which means you've been posting a lot but saying almost nothing and accomplishing even less.

So, it's supposed to show that you're a liar or are seeing something I'm not.

ToonyMan is trying very hard to craft a tale of zombies in such a way that, guilty or no, myself and Eduren cannot oppose him without "proving" his accusations.  While the accusation itself would be believable on its own, combining it with the assertion that opposition = confirmation is a scummy tactic dripping with logical fallacy and an overeagerness to get potential confirmed townies lynched.

Oh NOW you can explain things in a logical manner. I'm tempted to say you're a zombie just to explain this as being fed from scumchat.

Anyway, while it's true that Toony's "obviously you'll vote me now so go ahead" argument is ridiculous, being ridiculous isn't quite the same as being scum. More importantly, there's three general outcomes to this debacle:

1. We lynch ToonyMan. If he's scum, he flips such and we realized Eduren and Lonewolf are clean.

2. We lynch Eduren. If he's town, he flips such and we realized ToonyMan is scum and Lonewolf is clean.

3. We lynch Lonewolf. If he's zombie, he flips such and we realize ToonyMan is scum and Eduren is clean.

In the second and third scenarios, ToonyMan disposes of a confirmed townie and is then lynched himself, which doesn't seem like a good bargain for scum.

In the first scenario, ToonyMan is revealed to be scum and our townies are confirmed- which could be worth it to ToonyMan if they're actually scum after all. This makes more sense as a scum gambit than the notion that he's simply willing to trade pieces, as it were.

In a hidden fourth scenario, we have an illusionist, who made it seem as though Eduren's resurrection were a zombification. As a result, we lynch at least one townie, and the scum laughs. Trouble is, I don't know if Illusionist actually works like that, or if they would simply make it seem like Eduren was/was resurrecting a different person. I also have no idea how scum would know who to target, so they'd generally have to have gotten pretty brilliantly lucky, in addition to having an illusionist to begin with.



So if ToonyMan really is scum, the only situation that makes sense (other than a hypothetical worst-case scenario) is that he's telling the truth, but is aware he's not very reliable and so is likely to get lynched. If he's not scum, he's (again, barring an illusionist) telling the truth and trying to lynch actual scum.

So if we lynch ToonyMan, he flips scum and we "know" Eduren and likely Lonewolf is also scum, or he flips town and we mostly know Eduren and Lonewolf are scum.

If we lynch Eduren, he flips scum and we "know" ToonyMan is also scum and Lonewolf is likely scum, or he flips town and we mostly know ToonyMan is scum and know for certain Lonewolf is town.

If we lynch Lonewolf, he flips town and we think it more likely that ToonyMan is scum and Eduren is town, or he flips scum and we know Eduren is scum and have no idea on ToonyMan.


So, lynching Lonewolf is right out. ToonyMan seems scummier, but Eduren's lynch would theoretically provide more solid information; specifically, we wouldn't have to wonder whether Lonewolf was zombified or regular rezzed. My theories also have Eduren as scum regardless, despite being less scummy in normal day interactions. And of course, ToonyMan acting bizarrely for no reason or a role power that fooled ToonyMan throws a wrench in all of this.

I'd like to hear everyone else's take on this, as it's pretty... bold reasoning.

[Archangel]

I am going through the thread from the start of Day 2. I'm going to post what I've got so far (up to page 11 or so) because I'm going to go do schoolwork. So, Part One:
Eduren:

Eduren:  Good to see you posting, but you didn't respond to me.  What were your suspicions D1, and what did N1 do to change them?

Oh, forgot you asked a question.

I actually suspected Janus Day1 because of a gut feeling. That however has been set aside because of the Org lynch.

Seriously? Only one suspicion from D1, and you set it aside? There was plenty to go on so this is ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of is you aren't really interested in this game, in which case you shouldn't have replaced into it.

Eduren, there are questions and accusations against you. Why are you ignoring them? It's clear you've been closely reading the thread, from your last posts.

Accusations? There was one question asked by Toaster and that was it. The only accusations against me were for lurking which, you'll notice, I am addressing by posting.


In case it wasn't clear, I find Lonewolf's behavior very scummy. Of course he seems to have left right after dismissing my question, so I will wait for him.

Vote with no reasons as to why Lonewolf is scummy, just that he is. Smacks of bandwagoning.

You are now calling Mr.Person the scummiest person in the game, yet aren't exactly pressing him. You are just calling him out for defending you yesterday and a passivity that I don't really see. Either find something worthwhile or admit that your attack on Mr.Person was a deflection.

You have a go at Lonewolf's attack, but at least he was trying to do something, unlike you.

Eduren:  What about Janus set you off?  Do you see yourself coming back to it?

I'm never able to read Janus very well. I thought it seemed weird for him to go after Org.

I don't think I'll be coming back to him unless something big happens.

Jeeze, you've bandwagoned, dropped the only suspicion you had, and assaulted someone else's argument. Not looking good.
Toaster:

Learning there's a cult helps us.  Problem is, we don't know what kind of cult.  It could be the type taken from old Paranormal games, or there could be recruits.  We don't know yet, but it's something to think about.

This looks to me like an attempt to sow doubt, something that seems suspect to me. You also seem to be asking many questions and providing few opinions, and when you do you are very passive about them. I believe it has been said that passiveness is scummy. It certainly is in your case. While the answers to your enquiries may be useful to the town, we aren't learning anything about what you think, and I feel that also takes away from the urgency of the things your asking.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1456607#msg1456607 Passive aggressive attack on me. More questions. Fallaciously accuses Janus of being a sideliner. Still lacking in personal opinion.
Jokerman:

The rest, I'm not exactly seeing a lot to work with. That said, my suspicions are on JanusTwoFace, Mr.Person, and Lonewolf. Their interactions could easily be a buss-buddy move, where two of them are scum and the other is none the wiser. If I had to pick, I'd want to lynch JanusTwoFace, because statistically speaking, if this is a gambit on the scum's part, then he'd be guaranteed to be scum. That would be valuable information.

I know I quoted this before, but now that we know that two out of these three you suspected were town, this is highly suspect. It's an attack based on nothing but air, and thus incredibly weak.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1453591#msg1453591Here you vote for Eduren and assert that there are questions and accusations against him but don't provide any of them, nor do you give any other reason for the vote.

Unvote.

Toaster: I didn't see that someone else posted that; it seems I was ninja'd. Like I said, posting from my phone. Makes it hard sometimes.

That said, I've been watching this thing with Lonewolf and I don't get a scummy vibe from him. I've been scum with him and I know how that looks.

I'm still watching for signs at this point (also waiting for a new laptop charger so I can get back into posting regularly), but I'm all for lynching the lurkers if they can't be bothered to play.

You drop your vote for Eduren as soon as someone calls you out on it. Brilliant(ly scummy). You say you don't think Lonewolf is scum. Convenient, considering that he had the majority vote. The evidence is stacking up.
Toony:

IronyOwl, you seemed incredibly hesitant to lynched Org yesterday right before lynch date (I was asleep IRL at the time).  Is this because you knew he was scum and didn't want to bus your partner until you caved in?

IronyOwl spent the ending of the last day hesitant to lynch Org even though that would be the only way someone would be lynched, that's a rise for suspicion.

This is a really rubbishy reason, and even when you clarified what you meant, it sounds like crap.

Suspicions right now:
JanusTwoFace – I haven't noticed anything scummy from you, but I'm  reserving judgement because you are an experienced player.
Solifuge - Hopefully will be covered in part 2.
Jokerman-EXE – Scummy. See above.
IronyOwl - Same as Soli.
Lonewolf I – Resurrected. Town until proven otherwise.
Toaster – A bit scummy. Again, see above.
ToonyMan – Ditto.
Archangel – Moderately scummy. Made a half hearted attempt to participate D1, lurked through D2. Lack of content. Keeps making excuses as to why he isn't posting. (Is this an accurate summary of the arguments against me?)
Eduren - Scummy. Yet again, see above.
D3 stuff I felt the need to respond to:

Archangel has been more helpful than I thought- he had a fair amount of content earlier in day one. It doesn't change the fact that he's been lurking a ton lately, but he had actual conversation going on earlier, and my claim that my last post was greater than all of his combined is patently false.

Thank you.

Archangel: Are you going to contribute today, or are going to continue to evade contributing by throwing around vague statements?  You also failed to vote.

I'm going to try to contribute. I was kicking myself for not voting, but since it would have been for Lonewolf, 'tis no loss. This is the first real attack I've seen you do, and it is on an easy target: me. Not a good look. In fact, Toaster, what are your suspicions? Who do you think are scum? Note that this isn't a OMGUS. I was going to do it anyway.

@Everyone: Go ahead and ask me questions, though it is possible that it will take me quite a while to get to them.

[Archangel]

Oh bugger. Toaster was meant to be red. Whoops.

[Eduren]

Eduren:

Eduren:  Good to see you posting, but you didn't respond to me.  What were your suspicions D1, and what did N1 do to change them?

Oh, forgot you asked a question.

I actually suspected Janus Day1 because of a gut feeling. That however has been set aside because of the Org lynch.

Seriously? Only one suspicion from D1, and you set it aside? There was plenty to go on so this is ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of is you aren't really interested in this game, in which case you shouldn't have replaced into it.
I set it aside because of Org's roleflip. Janus had been a major proponent of the Org lynch from the beginning and so alleviated most of my gut feelings when Org turned up scum.

Eduren, there are questions and accusations against you. Why are you ignoring them? It's clear you've been closely reading the thread, from your last posts.

Accusations? There was one question asked by Toaster and that was it. The only accusations against me were for lurking which, you'll notice, I am addressing by posting.


In case it wasn't clear, I find Lonewolf's behavior very scummy. Of course he seems to have left right after dismissing my question, so I will wait for him.

Vote with no reasons as to why Lonewolf is scummy, just that he is. Smacks of bandwagoning.
Do you even read my posts? I started with the Lonewolf attack here and I was simply clarifying that that was where my suspicions lie

You are now calling Mr.Person the scummiest person in the game, yet aren't exactly pressing him. You are just calling him out for defending you yesterday and a passivity that I don't really see. Either find something worthwhile or admit that your attack on Mr.Person was a deflection.

You have a go at Lonewolf's attack, but at least he was trying to do something, unlike you.
So I was doing absolutely nothing? Isn't "having a go at Lonewolf" something?

Eduren:  What about Janus set you off?  Do you see yourself coming back to it?

I'm never able to read Janus very well. I thought it seemed weird for him to go after Org.

I don't think I'll be coming back to him unless something big happens.

Jeeze, you've bandwagoned, dropped the only suspicion you had, and assaulted someone else's argument. Not looking good.
I was suspicious of Lonewolf, my vote was based on that suspicion, and where the hell did I "assault someone else's argument", whatever thats supposed to mean?

[ToonyMan]

ToonyMan is trying very hard to craft a tale of zombies in such a way that, guilty or no, myself and Eduren cannot oppose him without "proving" his accusations.  While the accusation itself would be believable on its own, combining it with the assertion that opposition = confirmation is a scummy tactic dripping with logical fallacy and an overeagerness to get potential confirmed townies lynched.

Uh huh, what a fancy theory.

ToonyMan:  That's a bold claim.  While there's certainly a lot we don't know about what we could be facing, it seems unusual to me that a zombie would make another zombie out of a dead person.  Don't they traditionally make them out of live people?  Are you sure you read your PM right?

What matters is the outcome, outcome is Eduren made another zombie (Lone Wolf).

ToonyMan, does your ability require you to target a specific dead person?  If so, why did you choose Lonewolf I over Org or Pandarsenic?

Nope, my role automatically lets me watch the graveyard, anything that happens there I see.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Overnight touring at my future college, sorry for absence. I have about one minute to do this so bear with me.

Toony is lying, I'm a Sexton and all it said in my PM is that Lonewolf went missing from the graveyard. He's gambling that there's no real Sexton to argue with him.

FoS on IronyOwl - your top picks have been Town (Lonewolf, your top, and myself, your second), and you haven't really been saying anything that no one else hasn't said. You're posting big with little original thought. If I didn't have proof that Toony was a liar, you'd have my vote. I took off my vote because I chalked your previous scummy behavior to newbtells, but you're looking worse and worse.

Archangel, you're an idiot. I retracted a vote after stating that it was just an idea I had had and was entertaining, but you can't read that much, can you?

Be back when I can.

[Toaster]

Toony:  Do you think that Eduren and Lonewolf are the remainder of the scum?

Archangel: Ok, I'll lay them out for you-

Toony/Eduren/Lonewolf:  I'm reserving judgment on this trio until it's further discussed.  I'm inclined to disbelieve Toony, as his arguments are the least constructed.

I've had a question mark next to Janus through most of the game to varying degrees.  Right now, I have nothing specific against him, so I'm looking elsewhere.  I still stand by my statement that he was sidelining early on.  He's better lately, but some of his recent posts (see post numbers 215, 217, and 223 for examples) are passive.

Solifuge is being town-unfriendly right now, which might as well be pro-scum.  His edit shenanigans, deliberate WIFOM, and early game non-participation are all black marks against him.

Last, you're not off my radar yet.  You say I haven't been attacking- did you not like my attacks on Lonewolf D2?  More importantly, why are you voting for someone a "bit scummy" over two people who are "scummy?"  I'm not convinced that you're being helpful yet.


POST WARNING EDIT-  Now that changes things.  Toony, what say you to Jokerman's claim?

[JanusTwoface]

I am going through the thread from the start of Day 2. I'm going to post what I've got so far (up to page 11 or so) because I'm going to go do schoolwork. So, Part One:

Another problemn with your strategy is that so much has happened since the beginning of Day 2.  A decent amount of your analysis is a bit outdated.  Any chance of you catching up over the weekend?

Toony is lying, I'm a Sexton and all it said in my PM is that Lonewolf went missing from the graveyard. He's gambling that there's no real Sexton to argue with him.

Well that's exciting.  At least this pretty much guarantees that either you or ToonyMan is scum.  I'll bet on Toonyman being a Cultist.  Unvote (if I was still voting someone) and vote ToonyMan.

[Lonewolf I]

Lonewolf:  Did your PM indicate anything amiss with either your resurrection or who might have been watching?

Though the flavor was detailed, it had a purplish hue about it.  There's nothing of the sort revealed on  close examination.

Are you a zombie?

No.

Lonewolf:  How do you plan to change your game, since it got you lynched D2?

Well, I can ply my warlocky trade openly now.  I'll be contacting Mr.Person tonight to see if he has any info, unless we lynch a townie who I have reason to believe will have better info.  Beyond that, it's business as usual.  Hunt and lynch scum.

[ToonyMan]

Two sexton.

[Solifuge]

Unvote.

Two sexton.

Adorable as that statement was, it can't be true. Either you or Jokeman-EXE are lying; your claims contradict one another pretty directly.

ToonyMan, you crumpled in a perceptible way, and I don't think a scum would put themselves out there to refute you after you claimed, when they would almost certainly die thereafter. Especially at this stage of the game. Your or his roleflip would clear up some of the more confusing bits regarding the last day, and if Jokerman's claim proves true, then the Scum are faced with a difficult night-kill choice among claimed players. Overall, I like this course of action.

[IronyOwl]

FoS on IronyOwl - your top picks have been Town (Lonewolf, your top, and myself, your second)

That's because they keep making indefensible statements without backing it up.

and you haven't really been saying anything that no one else hasn't said.

Perfect example. I dare you to find me three posts that are basically just copies of a prior post.

You're posting big with little original thought.

Is this actually supposed to mean something, or are you just slinging catch phrases in an attempt to belittle my walls of text?

FoS on IronyOwl - your top picks have been Town (Lonewolf, your top, and myself, your second)

Incidentally, only one has been proven to anyone but yourself. So either you're trying to mention that you're town in a roundabout fashion, or you don't particularly care how useful or true this post is to anyone but yourself.



Anyway, nobody's commented on my crazy scheme? It wasn't very clear, but I would think the madness was apparent regardless. I also made some errors, so a shorter, clearer version:

It doesn't make sense to me that ToonyMan would give himself away just to implicate one towny; if we believe him and lynched Eduren, when Eduren flipped town we'd realize he had been lying and lynch ToonyMan. One for one isn't a good bargain, and he didn't seem to be hard-pressed at the time- so if he is scum, he either panicked, felt his lynch was inevitable, or is trying to make Eduren look above reproach.

Barring misdirection or inexplicable behavior, I see no alternatives. Hence:

ToonyMan flips scum: That must have been his plan, and Eduren (and possibly Lonewolf) is also scum. Only alternative is that ToonyMan wanted to lynch one more townie before being lynched himself, but why?
ToonyMan flips town: He must have been telling the truth, and Eduren and Lonewolf are scum.

Eduren flips scum: ToonyMan was either telling the truth and is town, or trying to get himself lynched and failed. Eduren's role will likely reveal whether Lonewolf is a zombie or merely rezzed normally.
Eduren flips town: ToonyMan must have been lying, and is scum. Lonewolf must be town.

So there we have it. It's pretty bold to state that if we lynch Toony and he's scum, the guy he accused is also scum, but I just don't understand what else would make sense. Anyone?

[JanusTwoface]

ToonyMan flips town: He must have been telling the truth, and Eduren and Lonewolf are scum.

And Jokerman-EXE?  If ToonyMan was telling the truth, Jokerman-EXE was lying ergo rather scummy.  Seems problematic having so many scum.

[IronyOwl]

It does, but ToonyMan's behavior just doesn't add up otherwise.

Also, I think there's something I have to tell you. I am a Sage. Sorry if this is the wrong time for this, but I think you have to know.

See, at the beginning of the game, I was informed that a constellation known as "the gates of the underworld" was coming to dominance. Night two, I learned there was a ghoul among us- which was of course when he disappeared anyway. Night three, it was too cloudy to see anything, meaning I was either roleblocked, which we don't think is possible, or there simply aren't any more factions to know about.

But here's the thing- when I first read "gates of the underworld," I figured a demon would have come from a more abyss-type place, so it must have been referring to a devil. Then I realized a literal hell would have been more devil-ish; the underworld is more a place of the dead. So vampires! Yes, must mean vampires.

So then we lynch a cultist. Huh. Guess cultists are often trying to open the gates to hell or what have you, so that made sense.

But it's still "the underworld," a place I would generally say is more associated with the dead than some sort of demon lord or anything like that. Which means it's likely these are death cultists.

So if they really are death cultists, the notion that they could raise a zombie isn't out of the question. Most people seem to think ToonyMan is full of crap, and the very notion that Lonewolf could have been raised as a zombie is ridiculous. I'm not so sure. We've been talking about cultists possibly being able to recruit in some fashion, and a one-off rez-convert combo would both fit their flavor and be a far more insidious and useful tool than a straight-up "look how town I am rezzing town" or "enjoy wasting another lynch on him" rez.

So, I certainly don't know that Lonewolf is in fact a zombie, or that it's even possible to raise someone as a zombie, but with the information I have available, it seems plausible. I don't believe at all that Eduren is a zombie raising another zombie- it doesn't seem like there are any other factions- but the notion that he's a death priest zombifying a townie is disturbingly sensible to me.

So, there you have it. My apologies for ceasing to tank for our useful roles.

[ToonyMan]

My actions will be clearer when I die.

It can explain it more than I can.