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Author Topic: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.  (Read 5740 times)

RedKing

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2010, 07:02:56 am »

I'm ambivalent about the Wikileaks release. On the one hand, the military will perforce lie through its teeth on the actual state of the war (not because they're bad guys, but because that's what you DO when you're fighting a war), so it's good to get an outside reality check every now and then.

On the other hand, as someone who deals with classified information regularly, this is an appalling breach of INFOSEC. If they track down whoever leaked these docs (even if unintentionally)...ouch. And it is a matter of national security because there are lots of little gems of information tucked away in those 90,000+ pages that can be of use to the enemy.

As a good example, the document that kuro_suna linked to. The fact that the UAV went off-course and had to be destroyed before it violated neutral airspace is slightly embarrassing, but not that big of a deal. (In fact, it was reported nearly a year ago.)

The fact that it lists the exact location of the crash site, and a load-out of the drone's armaments *and* the fact that the drone was still bearing ordnance when it went down....that's of use to the enemy, and a good reason to classify the document and keep it out of public hands.
 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:39:20 am by RedKing »
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Phmcw

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 07:23:05 am »

To me, it look like "something is embarrassing" pass for a good reason to classify that thing nowadays. It's an abuse of the system.
Otherwise it look like the leftist view of the war is essentially correct : It's a mess, nato forces are careless in regard of civilian casualties, the Taliban kill a lot of civilian and generally commit war crime, we're grudgingly supported by Pakistan who have to fight it's own Taliban,  every single politician that support us is corrupted, and we're loosing.

Not completely on topic, it would be an error to focus only on the document leaked about the war in Afghanistan. There is a lot of very good information on many subject in this site (Kenyan police abuse, Icelandic corruption,...).
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RedKing

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2010, 12:02:12 pm »

Update: Okay, so apparently, they busted the leaker *two months ago*.

Quote
It was not until late May that the Pentagon finally closed in on a suspect, and that was only after a very strange sequence of events. On 21 May, a Californian computer hacker called Adrian Lamo was contacted by somebody with the online name Bradass87 who started to swap instant messages with him. He was immediately extraordinarily open: "hi... how are you?… im an army intelligence analyst, deployed to eastern bagdad … if you had unprecedented access to classified networks, 14 hours a day, 7 days a week for 8+ months, what would you do?"

For five days, Bradass87 opened his heart to Lamo. He described how his job gave him access to two secret networks: the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network, SIPRNET, which carries US diplomatic and military intelligence classified "secret"; and the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System which uses a different security system to carry similar material classified up to "top secret". He said this had allowed him to see "incredible things, awful things … that belong in the public domain and not on some server stored in a dark room in Washington DC … almost criminal political backdealings … the non-PR version of world events and crises."

Bradass87 suggested that "someone I know intimately" had been downloading and compressing and encrypting all this data and uploading it to someone he identified as Julian Assange. At times, he claimed he himself had leaked the material, suggesting that he had taken in blank CDs, labelled as Lady Gaga's music, slotted them into his high-security laptop and lip-synched to nonexistent music to cover his downloading: "i want people to see the truth," he said.

He dwelled on the abundance of the disclosure: "its open diplomacy … its Climategate with a global scope and breathtaking depth … its beautiful and horrifying … It's public data, it belongs in the public domain." At one point, Bradass87 caught himself and said: "i can't believe what im confessing to you." It was too late. Unknown to him, two days into their exchange, on 23 May, Lamo had contacted the US military. On 25 May he met officers from the Pentagon's criminal investigations department in a Starbucks and gave them a printout of Bradass87's online chat.

On 26 May, at US Forward Operating Base Hammer, 25 miles outside Baghdad, a 22-year-old intelligence analyst named Bradley Manning was arrested, shipped across the border to Kuwait and locked up in a military prison.

1. "Climategate with a global scope"? The fact that he even thinks there was a Climategate speaks something of his personal politics.
2. If you're going to divulge state secrets, try not bragging about it using a screen name with your real name in it.

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fenrif

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 12:11:26 pm »

...

The best thing about that is that according to a NYT article i read a while ago, wikileaks went to extraordinary lengths to keep the guy anonymous, and then he makes it all worthless because he needs an ego boost.

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PTTG??

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 12:12:29 pm »

Brad is almost certainly a 13 year old with an active imagination. For one thing, I seriously doubt that someone capable of leaking tens of thousands of top-secret documents is going to "confess" to some random internet chat guy.
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Phmcw

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2010, 12:17:22 pm »

The way the tale is told, I'm amazed that this guy made it into the US intelligence in the first place.
The thing he saw must have affected him a lot.

Herm, no pttg, he is arrested, and is facing a very severe sentence. There have been a topic about it in this very forum. it's the same guy that leaked the collateral murder video.

Ps, I insist, this site is gold, you're likely to find very interesting document about your country ; I've found disturbing one about mine, Belgium.
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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2010, 12:29:41 pm »

The way the tale is told, I'm amazed that this guy made it into the US intelligence in the first place.

... So tempted to make a joke about "US intelligence." :P
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Huesoo

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2010, 12:33:13 pm »

The way the tale is told, I'm amazed that this guy made it into the US intelligence in the first place.
The thing he saw must have affected him a lot.

Herm, no pttg, he is arrested, and is facing a very severe sentence. There have been a topic about it in this very forum. it's the same guy that leaked the collateral murder video.

Ps, I insist, this site is gold, you're likely to find very interesting document about your country ; I've found disturbing one about mine, Belgium.

That soon it is going to be non-existant?
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PTTG??

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2010, 12:38:08 pm »

Don't kid yourself. The guy who "confessed" is an idiot, and would never be hired for any remotely secure position. For another thing, I'd expect that if the leaker was caught, the Pentagon would be announcing it from every mountaintop in the land.
 
Instead, the only news I can find from this with an admittedly cursory search is a report from The Daily Show, with Jon Stewart, talking about this guy.
 
Don't tell me it's a massive coverup, either. If the Army is good enough to cover up an assasination of a securely protected whistle-blower, they're good enough to prevent an idiot from walking out of the place with CDs of fake Lady Gaga.
 
More to the point, what's more likely; that one experienced and knowledgeable whistle-blower suddenly lost all reasoning, subterfuge and, grammar abilities, and IMed some random guy; OR, that a thirteen-year-old got bored and pretended to be said whistle-blower, and his buddy took it seriously, and when our 13-year old got tired of the joke and stopped, the buddy thought the Army finally got wise to him?
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Aqizzar

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2010, 12:52:26 pm »

Brad is almost certainly a 13 year old with an active imagination. For one thing, I seriously doubt that someone capable of leaking tens of thousands of top-secret documents is going to "confess" to some random internet chat guy.

They've arrested the guy, so he does exist.  It's not at all uncommon for very young people to have seemingly high-value jobs in the military; he was probably fresh out of officer training or something.

Anyway, I was going to make a big bitch-post about how saying "hey, war sucks, people should stop being surprised by that, nothing to see here", does not make you tough, cool, manly, experienced, or in any other way more qualified about the issue at hand.  But I'll just drop that sentence and move on.


I think the most important "revelation" here is the reams of internal discussion about what people in the know already suspected for years: The Pakistani intelligence service (ISI) is taking billions of dollars in aid from the US to help fight the Taliban, and are instead helping the Taliban.  At this point, the big-picture rationale for why America still gives a shit about Afghanistan is to supposedly build a stable enough government that the Taliban can't roar back in and make a terrorist state to destabilize Pakistan.  So America has to prop up Pakistan as an ally to fight the nascent Taliban.  But the military intelligence apparatus that effectively runs Pakistan is on better terms with the nascent Taliban than it is with America.

Ergo, America is funding the ISI to fight the Taliban, but they're funding the Taliban, as America is fighting the Taliban.  America is funding a war against itself, by trying to pretend that a nation needs protection against the same insurgency it's effectively allied with.

America's two options on the table are 1) stay in Afghanistan or 2) leave Afghanistan.  Option 1 supposedly contains the Taliban until Afghanistan can stand on it's own and Pakistan can hold off their own side of the "insurgency".  All three of those goals quite demonstrably have as much to do with strategic reality as Candyland; the first is not working, the second is a joke, the third is the exact opposite of what's happening.  Option 2 supposedly entails a Cambodia-style bloodbath, followed by a reconstituted Taliban storming Pakistan and taking its nukes or some shit.  The ISI is banking on America eventually choosing this option, because they expect America won't station a 100,000 man garrison in Afghanistan until the end of time, which is the core logic of Option 1.  And lo and behold, they're now on working terms with the nascent Taliban, as Afghanistan slides back into anarchy despite the US military's presence.  (Banking on Afghan militants blew up in the ISI's face in the 70's and 90's when they tried that before, but current facts are current facts.)

So, that's where we stand.  The heavy American presence in Afghanistan is not accomplishing any military objective of note no matter the numbers, is fueling the systemic corruption of the Afghan government while the Afghan military fails to materialize, is not weakening the Taliban in any meaningful sense, and is funneling money through Pakistan into the very enemy it's supposed to be fighting, strengthening that relationship in the process.  Leaving Afghanistan, by the common wisdom, would cause a range of internal violence and discord that's happening already in spite of the continued presence, or would lead to a Taliban-vs-Pakistan fight that by all present accounts, is the exact opposite of the working relationship that we are giving them cause to have.  If anything, us leaving would cause them to turn against each other, which might actually be the better option, instead of them starting to like each other.

With all that in mind, why the fuck are we still doing this?  Is it going to take another nine years before America can finally take its dick out its hand and admit we screwed up the hunt for bin-Laden (remember him?), and everything since was doomed to failure from the start?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 12:55:15 pm by Aqizzar »
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RedKing

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2010, 12:55:50 pm »

You guys have obviously never heard the old saw about "military intelligence" as an example of an oxymoron.

I can vouch that not-bright people can end up with significant security clearances. (Wait, that didn't come out right...)   :-\


Suffice it to say, I can fully believe that a 22-year old Army intelligence specialist could have obtained these documents (most are rated Secret, the lowest level of DoD classified material) and I can fully believe that he might have had the incredibly poor judgement to leak them. And the even worse judgement to brag about it.



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Aqizzar

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2010, 12:57:39 pm »

Indeed.  Tactical acumen in committing what could well be called grand treason is not something I would expect from a guy calling himself "Bradass87".
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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2010, 12:58:58 pm »

OK, OK... Looks like I searched wrong.
 
Man, this guy is an idiot. I guess you kind of need an idiot to make an enemy of the US government while working for them...
 
I mean, I admire the guy for leaking the docs, but still, guy, nice job picking confidants there.

Edit: Should have known I was wrong when Aqizzar was against me...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 01:03:48 pm by PTTG?? »
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RedKing

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Re: How is the war going on? Wikileak really inform you.
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2010, 01:07:25 pm »

Aqizzar: Man, we could argue for pages about your analysis, so I won't do that here. Let me just sum up my objections by saying Pakistani ISI != Pakistan. I'm not willing to consign an entire nuclear-armed nation to impact the fecal rotator just because one faction within it are a bunch of backstabbing evil fucks.

 
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