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Author Topic: Starcraft II  (Read 31647 times)

Pillow_Killer

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #270 on: August 03, 2010, 04:18:09 pm »

Terrans get a wall-jumping unit that doesnt cares for terrain. Yep, it can just sneak up on your main, unprotected building and kill of the workers. Yes, marauders. No cooldown, no limitation. Ignore any freaking terrain, aall at the cost of one meager barracks laboratory and a pretty cheap dude.
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every man faps to every person he knows/likes. I've done that for about 2 girls that I've liked really, and it's because they have big boobs. 'Nuff said amirite?

forsaken1111

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #271 on: August 03, 2010, 04:20:57 pm »

I do like those guys. Possibly the coolest unit addition on the terran side in my opinion.
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Chutney

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #272 on: August 03, 2010, 04:52:41 pm »

Terrans get a wall-jumping unit that doesnt cares for terrain. Yep, it can just sneak up on your main, unprotected building and kill of the workers. Yes, marauders. No cooldown, no limitation. Ignore any freaking terrain, aall at the cost of one meager barracks laboratory and a pretty cheap dude.
It takes time to get reapers. A little longer than it takes to get marauders, roaches, or zealots. All of which destroy them. Also workers destroy them. Trust me, I'm a veteran of the "make them quit by killing all their workers with reapers" strategy, and it only works on slow players.

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A wall wouldn't lower your unit capacity when destroyed and would be tougher.
Cool. I'd still rather use supply depots/pylons, because they're actually useful. Walls are only useful for about the first 10 minutes anyways. After that you might as well put your supply depots on perma-lower and send your 2 guard zealots off to die scouting, because the enemy's gonna just fly in anyways. Walls would be permanent, block your ground units, and be completely useless outside of the rush time. Seriously, there is no need for 'dedicated' wall units with no benefits except +100 hp.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 09:29:20 pm by Chutney »
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Pillow_Killer

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #273 on: August 03, 2010, 05:02:34 pm »

Im talking about marauders, not reapers.And yes, I did. In 2v2, I killed maybe 6-7 of marauders, then it was over.
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every man faps to every person he knows/likes. I've done that for about 2 girls that I've liked really, and it's because they have big boobs. 'Nuff said amirite?

Chutney

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #274 on: August 03, 2010, 05:44:40 pm »

marauders are big+slow and can't jump over terrain. you're talking about reapers.
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HideousBeing

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #275 on: August 03, 2010, 09:28:08 pm »

Anyone see any interesting maps out there yet? People have been doing cool stuff like the touhou clone, but I haven't heard of much. Also the publishing system sucks.
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CrimsonKnight86

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #276 on: August 04, 2010, 02:00:22 am »

This game is amazing.

Same as the first one, but so much more!

Don't try to fix what ain't broken, I say!
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Whiskey mcgin

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #277 on: August 04, 2010, 02:49:01 am »

Yeah, reapers are quite easy to counter if you scout properly. Besides, walling off is a proper strategy, but that doesent mean you need *walls*, that would just be stupid. If they were unable to lower/raise it would ruin counterattacks completely, and if it had too much + hp enemy rushes wouldnt work anymore, making Terran OP. :P
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Miggy

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #278 on: August 04, 2010, 05:58:15 am »

Reapers can seem a bit OP, but they're really not. They do impressively high amounts of damage (to light armour), but they're so fragile that it's not an issue.

If a terran wants to open reasonably (that means, not sprinting to reapers, ignoring his overall economy), by the time he gets a reaper inside of your base is a good few seconds after you (should) have gotten marauders, stalkers or queens. He can try to dance around and get a few shots off at your probe line, but you should really be able to kill him before he gets that far.

If he does sprint for reapers as fast as possible, ignoring SCV and depot construction and building his barracks proxy, then he will be able to get his reaper into your base by the time you get marines, zealots and zerglings. These he can kill with a bit of micro, and then head for your probeline. But a thing to note is how all-in he's gone with the reapers, and even though his reaper might kill a handful of workers as well as micro around some tier 1 units, he's busting his own game doing so, and if he doesn't kill a load of your stuff he's even worse off than you are. If his reaper ends up dying after only having killed maybe 2 or 3 workers, then you're at a massive advantage despite having lost a few workers.

In 2v2 this is of course a bit different, since 2v2 works in mysterious ways. If 2 terrans both go for some relatively early reapers, those two reapers will be able to do more than twice the damage of a single reaper. I don't know how fast a protoss/terran team is able to get reapers out if the protoss chrono boosts the terran's barracks, but I'd assume it's pretty early (this sounds like an interesting idea too, since it would have little consequence economically). In any case, in 2v2 you need to accept that it's possible to do everything right and still be rolled over if the other two guys simply come at you. Having to re-build your main in your ally's expansion or something is not out of the ordinary. :P
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Asehujiko

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #279 on: August 04, 2010, 06:00:30 am »

Reaper rushes are especially funny on the maps where they can jump right into your resource area. Usually results in dead reapers since I always put the rally point for my zerglots right behind my crystals because nobody ever scouts there with any other unit.
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Ephemeriis

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #280 on: August 04, 2010, 07:00:33 am »

This reveals the problem to be poor gameplay design, rather than a pathing problem. If the best tactic to counter a rush is to build supply depots or other buildings as a wall, then we need actual WALLS. Defenses should be able to stop these attacks at the gate. A single protoss warrior between two pylons should not be your rush-defense strategy, its absurd.

That's kind of what I was trying to say.

It's absurd to think that a marine (or protoss, or whatever) is going to act as some kind of immovable wall.  You should be able to push past individual troops.  It makes sense.  Yes, I understand the cop with a riot shield analogy above...  But you know what?  If you had a half-dozen zerglings trying to get through that narrow gap, they'd simply trample him.  He shouldn't be an immovable object.
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A wall wouldn't lower your unit capacity when destroyed and would be tougher.

Cool. I'd still rather use supply depots/pylons, because they're actually useful. Walls are only useful for about the first 10 minutes anyways. After that you might as well put your supply depots on perma-lower and send your 2 guard zealots off to die scouting, because the enemy's gonna just fly in anyways. Walls would be permanent, block your ground units, and be completely useless outside of the rush time. Seriously, there is no need for 'dedicated' wall units with no benefits except +100 hp.

Ultimately it comes down to gameplay mechanics.  Due to the way the game is built, rushes happen.  An early swarm of quick, cheap units can completely ruin your day.  So there needs to be a defense.  And, due to the way the game is built, that defense takes the form of half-assed walls to keep those rushes from doing too much damage.

The game could very easily have been made differently - either to eliminate the threat of rushes, or to provide a better defense.

Look at the old C&C games - you could build walls and gates.  The gates automatically lowered to let friendlies through.  They were crazy cheap, built very fast, went a long way towards mitigating the threat of a rush, and didn't hamper your own troops.  Sure, they were useless against flying units...  But they did their job and didn't hamper you, so it wasn't a bad thing to build them initially.

Blizzard could have added some kind of defensive walls to the game and made it work.  To suggest that is impossible is just silly.

Decisions were made along the way that resulted in the current design.  The design where you wind up using a couple individual units to form a wall.

In the context of the game - that works.  The mechanics work.  It is effective.

But it doesn't make sense.  Logically, a couple marines should not have the same effect as a cement wall.
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kcwong

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #281 on: August 04, 2010, 07:34:02 am »

Even just adding one defensive turret on the command center could make rushing much harder to pull off.
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Kanil

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #282 on: August 04, 2010, 07:37:35 am »

With regards to unit walls: Hostile units could push in Beta. This has balance repercussions. The game could be balanced with hostiles pushing, but that would have consequences. Whether these would be worth it or not is unlikely to be explored.

With regards to reapers: Reapers suck. End of story.

With regards to rushing: Scout. If you see it coming, you won't die to it. Simple as that.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:43:30 am by Kanil »
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Yah, it sounds like minecraft with content, you have obviously missed the point, people dont like content, they like different coloured blocks.
Seems to work fine with my copy. As soon as I loaded the human caravan came by and the world burst into fire.

Kanil

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #283 on: August 04, 2010, 07:40:37 am »

excuse me while I look for the delete button...
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Yah, it sounds like minecraft with content, you have obviously missed the point, people dont like content, they like different coloured blocks.
Seems to work fine with my copy. As soon as I loaded the human caravan came by and the world burst into fire.

Chutney

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Re: Starcraft II
« Reply #284 on: August 04, 2010, 07:45:52 am »

rushing is already hard to pull off, and command centers DO get turrets if you tech it. I have yet to effectively 6/9pool to get lings out fast enough to rush, haven't pulled off a zealot proxy. The only rush I've gotten was reapers, which yea they cripple my economy and are easily countered
Why make dedicated wall units to help thwart rushing when a)the game already has means b)the current method of walling provides more benefits?
Stop thinking from a "omg need realism" pov and start thinking "this is a game, and games need design+balance"

also, you gotta keep scouting and have your defenses at the ready, tbh. building a supply depot/rax combo at a ramp, or using the pylon+2 zealots (I think 2pylons and one zealot is better but that's just speculation, I've never tried to do it), or have zerglings ready to defend. The game gives you everything you need to counter everything the enemy throws at you (EXCEPT vikings/broodlords... anyone know a counter for vikings/broodlords in 2v2? I literally cannot think of anything once they get rolling... guess you just gotta prevent them from rollinnn)
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