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[janekk]

Formations are kind of needed to some degree as well. Age of Empires 2 has way better formations, and it came out years ago (I don't know when).

AoE II had amazing formations, you just picked variant (line, column and something else) selected units and gave move order. In front melee units, archers behind, and siege weapons at back if you had any. It's so easy and intuitive and works flawlessly. I don't understand why it can't be done in modern games. To some extend Supreme Commander had those but it wasn't as good as in AoE II.

[Miggy]

I think it used to be possible to push around a unit that was shooting, but it was heavily abused in multiplayer. If you at any point used units to block a wall-off, it was just a matter of your opponent clicking frantically to get past to make your units eventually step aside. I.e. if a protoss made a gateway/pylon wall-off on the top of his ramp, then positioned a zealot on hold position to make it zergling tight, zerglings could still get through by simply running up then keep pushing the zealot as they tried to shove their way through, eventually breaching.

I don't know if it was possible for them to make it ally-specific, so that allied units can push firing units while enemy units can't. In any case, they removed that ability, and a hold position or attacking unit is now completely unmovable unless ordered to move by its owner.

In the pro scene they love this, though. It means another place where skill has a chance to shine through. A lot of the pro worries about SC2 was that there were so many easy-mode features that in the end, high skill really didn't make much of a difference as the AI took care of everything else for you. It turned out to be a non-existant issue though, as there are plenty of advantages to gain from constantly macroing and constantly microing and constantly x and y.

[G-Flex]

I understand the reason they do that, I just wish there wasn't so much needless micromanagement. Currently they act like a bunch of retarded school children.

So just like the original Starcraft, then? That's one of the things that always bugged me about it; you have to damn near control every soldier like a marionette.

[kcwong]

I understand the reason they do that, I just wish there wasn't so much needless micromanagement. Currently they act like a bunch of retarded school children.

So just like the original Starcraft, then? That's one of the things that always bugged me about it; you have to damn near control every soldier like a marionette.

Or at least you need to use several hotkeys for your main army, one for each unit type.

[Ephemeriis]

I understand the reason they do that, I just wish there wasn't so much needless micromanagement. Currently they act like a bunch of retarded school children. If I tell a group of soldiers in Dawn of War 1 or 2 to attack a target they move so that they are ALL in range, squeezing past each other if necessary. I have to micro them if I want them in cover, or to use special abilities, but I don't want to(and should't need to) make sure they can all shoot the target I told them to shoot.

Even better - you can very easily tell units whether they should be using ranged, melee, or mixed attacks.  And they'll move into the right range. 

So you can grab a whole pile of units and tell them to attack someone...  And the melee guys will charge right up front and start swinging, while the ranged folks stay back.

It can still be handy to micro-manage things a bit...  Focus fire on something specific, or use a special ability... But as far as simply making sure everyone is actually in range and doing damage?  Just tell them to attack.

[Zangi]

But as far as simply making sure everyone is actually in range and doing damage?  Just tell them to attack.

Problem not addressed: Semi-circle of longer range/bigger units blocking the way for shorter ranged units to attack.


Answer: 'Micromanage'

[Duke 2.0]

 Answer: Not retarded pathfinding and let those smaller units squeeze by you inconsiderate fatty longer-range units. And if wall-ins are compromised then just make it so units told to stay in place won't let anything push them around and squeeze through, or just allow it for allies only.

[Ephemeriis]

Answer: Not retarded pathfinding and let those smaller units squeeze by you inconsiderate fatty longer-range units.

I don't understand why the fatty long range units wouldn't just move.

Step out of the way, let the troops go through, step back to where you were.  Makes perfect sense to me.

Yes, of course, this might very well put your long range guys a bad place...  But that's why you micromanage them.  If you're just trying to get some troops from one place to another you really shouldn't have to tell individual units to get out of the way.

if wall-ins are compromised then just make it so units told to stay in place won't let anything push them around and squeeze through, or just allow it for allies only.

I fail to understand why a wall-in should even really be possible.

Ok, obviously, a normal human isn't going to shove a tank around...  But if we're talking about a pile of zerg pushing up against a pile of marines it isn't like the marines are fused to the bedrock or anything.  It makes sense to be able to shove people around a bit.

Sure, if you've got sufficient numbers, you should be able to substantially impede someone.  They aren't pushing against a single marine, but rather pushing through a group of 30 or 40.  And at those numbers you're going to cut down a lot of zerg before they get too far.

But why should a marine be treated like some immovable object?

[Duke 2.0]

 I suppose at that point it gets more into gameplay balance. There are a lot of rush shenanigans one can pull off, and walling off is one of the best tactics one can use to make sure somebody doesn't run past your defenses and destroy all your peons. One cannot just make another building to block things off as that would block off the choke to yourself and removes one ranged unit from being able to defend the wall from the swarm of cheap units going for your peons.

[Miggy]

Imagine a row of riot-police all with their shields off. That's any unit on hold position.

A unit wall-off is where there is only space for a single unit. Imagine a riot cop with his shield inside of a very narrow tunnel, just big enough for his shield to reach across.

Now expand that idea to every other unit. Sure, a zergling might decide to jump over a zealot on hold position, but zerglings can't jump that high. The walls on either side of him prevent them from running past. Him standing his ground as a potent warrior prevents them from simply shoving him past. That's a wall-off.

[Zangi]

Imagine a row of riot-police all with their shields off. That's any unit on hold position.

A unit wall-off is where there is only space for a single unit. Imagine a riot cop with his shield inside of a very narrow tunnel, just big enough for his shield to reach across.

Now expand that idea to every other unit. Sure, a zergling might decide to jump over a zealot on hold position, but zerglings can't jump that high. The walls on either side of him prevent them from running past. Him standing his ground as a potent warrior prevents them from simply shoving him past. That's a wall-off.

I believe that zergling would maul the riot-cop.  If it could get past that shield...  Don't seem like he would have the room to shoot it at the same time... so it is inevitable...

Or did we change that to the zealot?  The zealot would stab it mid-flight.  And then he will shout: "You shall not pass!" To the hundreds of zerglings lining up in the tight passageway, wanting to get pass...

[Asehujiko]

Ah yes, AOE2 formations. Melee up front, javelins/other short weapons behind, then long range weapons, finally siege equipment and they all move at the speed of the slowest unit so no trebuchets left behind. Then there's square, which does exactly the same but omnidirectional, a flank option which causes the unit to split up but maintain cohesion so if you have 2 things with minimum range you an have them cover eachother and equally unmissable, the loose formation. I think there even was a button to ditch the catapults and send the cavalry ahead for emergencies.

The best part was the fact that when you ordered units far enough away, they change into a long column for reduced collision danger and it only calculates the pathfinding for the frontmost units, the rest follow in their footsteps and only check if something walked into the column and re-start pathing if that's the case. Nowadays you won't get much use out of it but my old computer that could barely run the game at all and crashed when I tried MP with more then 4 people noticeably sped up when I set all my 200 units to cruise control.

Now only if Total War games had that much finesse in terms of getting units from A to B, especially where walls are involved....

[forsaken1111]

I suppose at that point it gets more into gameplay balance. There are a lot of rush shenanigans one can pull off, and walling off is one of the best tactics one can use to make sure somebody doesn't run past your defenses and destroy all your peons.

This reveals the problem to be poor gameplay design, rather than a pathing problem. If the best tactic to counter a rush is to build supply depots or other buildings as a wall, then we need actual WALLS. Defenses should be able to stop these attacks at the gate. A single protoss warrior between two pylons should not be your rush-defense strategy, its absurd.

[Chutney]

Well, considering supply depots are designed to be walls... what with their nifty lowering/raising mechanic
If they added real walls to the game, 99% of players would continue using the supply depots/pylons technique because adding redundant buildings is bad gameplay design. Why build a wall that can stop enemies when you can build a wall that stops enemies AND provides supply to build more units, and/or (depending on race) raise/lower so it's not blocking your own units when you want to get out or provide power nearby to build more buildings (including cannons).

And there are other ways to defend against a rush that don't include walling your base in. Build your own units, have your workers fight the rushers... assuming you're not pushing for some gimmick strategy that prevents you from building defenses for the first 5 minutes rushing is not that hard to repel.

[forsaken1111]

A wall wouldn't lower your unit capacity when destroyed and would be tougher.