Topic: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work? (Read 11357 times)

Ledi · « **on:** July 27, 2010, 03:39:32 am »

I searched and looked at other designs, but I'm disastrously bad at reading the "code" most people use for showing designations etc in the forums.

I have a question:

Will this work as a spiral ramp?

Z-0
Z-1
(faded parts will be completely channeled out, this is only two levels - it would continue to spiral up/down as needed)

I intend to have two of them, one either side of my main entranceway. The cross-over spars are there so that dwarves can cross over the staircase to get to rooms on any side of the staircase. If this design won't work, please let me know what modifications need to be made.

I'm trying to think big and grand for this fortress. No pansy 3x3 staircase to the pits of despair this time!

Agamemnon · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2010, 03:53:50 am »

upward ramps work only, if there is a wall next to them, right?

chewie · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2010, 03:59:05 am »

From the Wiki:

Quote

For a creature to use a ramp, all of the following are necessary:
The space directly above the ramp must be open.
The ramp must have a wall next to it.
The space above one of the adjacent walls must be open.

Your design fails by the second point. Remove the designations by the circled tiles:
Image

Ledi · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:02:19 am »

Quote from: chewie on July 27, 2010, 03:59:05 am

From the Wiki:
Quote
For a creature to use a ramp, all of the following are necessary:
The space directly above the ramp must be open.
The ramp must have a wall next to it.
The space above one of the adjacent walls must be open.

Your design fails by the second point. Remove the designations by the circled tiles:
Image

So it does... thankyou for pointing that out to me. ^^ This is why I check before I dig. >.>

Edit: Curses, that ruins the symmetry of it, and stops wagons from getting in. >.< Argh OCD tendencies cropping up.

Dorf3000 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2010, 05:39:45 am »

I believe wagons wouldn't be able to fit through the center of those quarter circles anyway, unless they actually do travel diagonally and not strictly N-S/E-W like I've seen in 40d.

Assuming you want a 3-wide central corridor to connect with the spiral, you would need to put the ramps on one side of the corridor or the other, as approaching directly towards the center and then joining the spiral requires a 90 degree turn. I've seen a design where the ramps were actually positioned diagonally (NE, SE, SW and NW directions) with the central corridor connecting to the middle of the quarter circles on each level, which was quite elegant.

Jurph · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2010, 09:07:48 am »

Aesthetically speaking, you've got many more crossover spars than you need - the two spirals can be independent and only linked at (say) every third level. Dwarves will take the ramp up or down to whichever level has their desired crossover bridge. That also gives you an opportunity to make a waterfall flow right through the center, so they all get happy thoughts using the crossover.

katyrnyn · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2010, 11:38:53 am »

I've been using a double-helix design very similar to this for some time now with a great deal of success.

Here's a quick rundown: I have a 3x3 column in the middle (with stairs down the center for water). From the center of the column there are two spokes going in opposite directions with five ramps, separated from the column by one tile. The ramps are centered with the column, and the required wall is on either front or back (depending upon the rotation of the helix).

A crude example (w - wall, x - up/down stair, v - down ramp, ^ - up ramp):

Code: [Select]

      wv
      wv
      wv
      wv
      wv
      w
wwwwwwwww
^^^^^ wxw ^^^^^
      wwwwwwwww
       w
      vw
      vw
      vw
      vw
      vw

This allows diagonal travel between the two innermost up/down ramps without an obstacle to go around. I tend to put cages or masterwork statues in the space between the ramp and the column. My default for each level is somewhat circular, but laid out such that the diagonals from one up/down ramp to the next are obstacle free. Next level up: rotate the design by 90°. My primary fort is ten levels of the helix, connected only at the base, providing an effective 19 levels. I use a smaller version with 3x3 ramps and the water column to go down to the magma.

I can upload a screenshot or two when I get home, if you like.

slink · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2010, 01:46:35 pm »

I have two Quickfort csv files that I use for my spiral ramp layout. The core is a 2x2 which can be either carved away as a channel down the center or dug out as a 4x4 connection between the two halves of the ramp. I do the latter at this time. The files cause Quickfort to designate two layers at a time.

The first file is only the ramp. I use this when digging below the fortress proper, in order to locate the caverns.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The second file is my room layout, but the rooms are not connected yet. This is so that I get the corridors dug early on in the fortress. Later I connect the rooms that I need to the corridors with 3-tile doorways. Leaving them unconnected also allows me to customize some rooms. The layout provides for eight 11x11 rooms per layer, as is. I usually subdivide two into four 5x5 each, for the homes of the Captain of the Guard and the Mayor, and the offices of the Bookkeeper and the Manager. I enlarge a few for dormatories and barracks. Workshop and stockpile areas are left as is.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

monk12 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:01:47 pm »

The last time I did something like this, I centered the spiral on a 2x2 square space instead of on a single square. This accommodates the ramp and the wall supporting the ramp without ruining your OCD tendencies. It does mean that the rest of the fortress is based on 2 and 4 wide hallways instead of 3 and 5, but I find that more useful for caravan management anyway. Also, central waterfall ftw!

Noble Digger · « **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2010, 05:09:20 pm »

Don't give up! Your design looks beautiful and with a little bit of re-engineering, you should be able to use this staircase the way you want. You'll simply have to go with a yashichi design instead of a cross design. This is a yashichi:

http://mimg.ugo.com/200706/29852/capcomyashichi.JPG

To explain better, you'll have to settle for radial symmetry without also having horizontal symmetry. Sort of like the Irvine Company logo.

http://www.formacompanies.com/media/images/logo_irvine.gif

Ledi · « **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2010, 06:26:52 pm »

Quote from: katyrnyn on July 27, 2010, 11:38:53 am

I've been using a double-helix design very similar to this for some time now with a great deal of success.

*snip*

I can upload a screenshot or two when I get home, if you like.

That would be a wonderful help. This is the first time I've attempted anything like this, so it's very trial and error at this stage.

katyrnyn · « **Reply #11 on:** July 27, 2010, 08:02:05 pm »

Okay, here ya go: the mighty dwarf double-helix fort known as NorthStone!

This first image is of a "node" level before any adjacent rooms have been dug out.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Second is the base of the operation where the two helices connect, and where I place all of my meeting rooms, levers and whatnot. This is where all the dwarfs congregate, so access to any one level in the fortress (except Magma) takes only 9 levels of climbing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A few notes: I refer to the two sides of the Double Helix as the Front Spin and the Back Spin. The Front is marked with Blue Arrows (Cobaltite) by the ramps, the Back with Red Arrows (Cinnabar). The Blue Arrows all point the way to the surface (Blue Sky), while the Red Arrows point to the depths (Red Magma). Marking them may not help the dwarfs, but it has come in handy for me numerous times.

On the base level, the food reserves, farms, and production are accessible through the ramps to the west/left, while the "Depths" are to the north.

I still have a few temporary workshops set up on the base level in this photo, but those get deconstructed once my workshop levels are up and running.

Finally, there are two wells on the Base Level to the northeast and southwest. These are fed by water pressure from the Main Reservoir two levels down, which is directly connected to the water column in the middle of the spiral. There are drains for the wells should someone or something fall in and need to be extracted. I leave the well reservoir's access stairs covered with a floor tile for aesthetic purposes (not 100% completed in the above photo). The water column for the Magma/Mine ramps is fed from the south of the Main Reservoir.

The Main Resevoir:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The well reservoirs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note the "Dwarf Atom Smasher" style of Trash Compactor is located on the level with the Well reservoirs. There is an open tile on each level of the spiral to the south of the water column going all the way to the top (~~not shown in the first photo~~). Once I've dumped all of the stone from the higher levels the open tiles will be floored over, leaving the only access on the Base level.

Hope that helps!

Edit: Struckout text. The open tile is in the first photo. Well Res level for the Atom Smasher, not Farm.

Danneh · « **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2010, 11:55:37 pm »

I've been using a spiral ramp design in my last few forts that seems to work moderately well, although has a few noticable drawbacks. It's an octagonal shape with the ramps located in the diagonal spaces of a central hallway in a... let me just show you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

These two designs just alternate with each level, with slight modifications to the central and outer rooms to make workshops, bedooms, dining halls, stockpiles, etc.

Pros;
-Looks good when smoothed
-Adaptable to cavern levels, and to support fortifications
-Moderate walking distance between levels

Cons;
-No caravan access between levels (My depot is always on ground floor so this isn't so bad for myself.)
-Uses a lot of building material when constructing upwards.

Ledi · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2010, 01:04:33 am »

Danneh:

Yargh, the slanty bits, they burn... They burn!

...Yeah, they may be setting off my "square room rage" a little bit. XD

Katyrnyn:

Wow, that's really impressive. ^^ I need to work on a water-pipe level I think, the fort itself is on the north part of the map three z-levels above the brook, which only cuts through the SE corner.

I'm debating whether or not the depot access is that big a deal or not - I can always build that on the ground level and have it in a bit of an airlock in case of invaders (unlikely, I'm in a "serene" area by coincidence, not design)

I really need to give myself a big challenge sometime and embark on a place that will actually *get* attacks and sieges. Never been past wilderness.

hailthefish · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2010, 01:24:01 am »

You'll eventually get sieges no matter what, I think, as long as there's goblins.

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Author Topic: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work? (Read 11357 times)

Ledi

Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

Agamemnon

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

chewie

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

Ledi

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Dorf3000

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Jurph

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katyrnyn

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slink

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monk12

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

Noble Digger

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

Ledi

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

katyrnyn

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

Danneh

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Ledi

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?

hailthefish

Re: Spiral Ramp Design: Will this work?