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Author Topic: The concept of good & evil  (Read 6418 times)

Vector

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2010, 02:01:01 pm »

-Philosophers-

Similarly, I'd suggest reading some of the French Existentialists.  Sartre, to be specific, but I imagine you'll find Camus educational as well.  Ionesco also fits well, though his work tends to come off rather more literary than philosophical.
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Servant Corps

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2010, 04:40:51 pm »

Good is that which is beniefical to society, and evil is that which is harmful to society. I think that's good definitions, as in, when people say good and evil, they are actually referring to their opinions of an action that would benieft/harm society. Most people view good as positive and evil as negative, after all.

Also, I say "society" as opposed to the "majority", since what is beniefical to the majority may not be beniefical for everyone.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 04:43:12 pm by Servant Corps »
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Sergius

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2010, 05:16:08 pm »

It might also be safe to assume that whatever the Church of Satan preaches is evil, though not downright stupid.

Why is it evil? What does it do that is evil?

From the link you've given, I can find a couple paragraphs that pretty much tell me it is not what you think it is.
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Josephus

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2010, 05:17:47 pm »

They're more pragmatic than they are evil.
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Realmfighter

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2010, 05:20:43 pm »

Good is that which is beniefical to society, and evil is that which is harmful to society. I think that's good definitions, as in, when people say good and evil, they are actually referring to their opinions of an action that would benieft/harm society. Most people view good as positive and evil as negative, after all.

Also, I say "society" as opposed to the "majority", since what is beniefical to the majority may not be beniefical for everyone.

What do you mean by Beneficial? reproducing to the maximum possible? Scientific advancement above all else? Happiness for all? Ending suffering?
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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2010, 05:22:21 pm »

I would say that depends entirely on the situation at hand. Which, as I said, is what many modern establishments supposedly attempt to do - make informed desicions based on what is most urgent.
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Realmfighter

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2010, 05:23:05 pm »

But they don't think in right and wrongs.

They use logic, not feelings.
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Cthulhu

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2010, 05:24:01 pm »

The establishment isn't supposed to have feelings, it's supposed to do what maximizes happiness for the most people.
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Servant Corps

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2010, 05:24:16 pm »

Google claim beniefical is "promoting or enhancing well-being" and well-being is based on the triad of "happy, healthy and prosperous". Scientific advancement, ending suffering, and reproduction should serve the goal of happiness, healthiness, and prosperity to be considered benefical...and for the most part, they do, but they aren't ends in and of themselves.

I guess I should have thought this through, since I am thinking of writing a book on an ethical theory...eh.
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Realmfighter

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2010, 05:25:25 pm »

Here is a question for all of you.

Is what the robots in the Matrix do Good or Evil?*

*The Animatrix is Canon.
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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2010, 05:33:12 pm »

Quote
Is what the robots in the Matrix do Good or Evil?

In the most neutral sense, it's probably good for them. It's primarily good for the humans, as well, at least in the... what's the term? Hedonistic? That link to that stuff written by Epicurus should explain what I mean, at least in part. It doesn't matter that you live in comparatively blissful ignorance, especially when it's essentially impossible to see past the illusion without being aware of its flaws. And to think, with the story expansion, that descision was effectively initially made with goodwill on both sides...

For the record, I don't really perscribe to the idea of "good" and "evil" and "right" and "wrong" being applied to logical/informed decisions. For me, it's more important to make a decision in the first place. Being someone is more important than being right, or even being effective.
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Psyco Jelly

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2010, 06:38:43 pm »

I have yet to find a satisfactory definition for either good or evil. There are some people I view as undeniably good, and others as undeniably evil. In general, I consider those who are selfless and without prejudice to be good. Of course, there is no reason one shouldn't also make the world better for themselves. As long as you're not stepping on people toes, do whatever you want.

In my opinion, the ideal world would be one without government, where no natural rights need protecting because no one would try and rob others of them. Though I may dislike things detrimental to this vision, I would not by any means consider them "evil". Being unwilling to learn is a sin to me. Robbing another of their natural rights is close. Hypocrisy and untruthfulness are less severe. The most terrible sin in my opinion is spreading ignorance.
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Virex

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2010, 07:00:46 pm »

As far as I am concerned, good and evil are concepts arising naturally through social interaction within a community as a way for that community to regulate and streamline internal processes and to avoid things that are deemed of negative effect to the community. Humans, as social beings have a natural tendency to form ideas about good and bad, based upon what they gather from the community, coupled with their own deductive reasoning. Psychopaths are an example of what happens when these systems fail.


This means that good and evil as abstract concepts are inherent to humanity, but what form they take is entirely dependent upon the community one grows up in and even the treatment of good and evil can differ between communities, with some holding a strict totalitarian view in which good is absolute and evil needs to be abolished, while others see it more as a balancing act.


If we take a look at the nature of good and evil itself and the treatment of them within society, Nietzche's philosophy clearly states that to do good one sometimes has to be prepared to do evil. One thing interesting is that this is at least partially backed up by Game theory. A community is most stable and healthy if most of it's members adhere to the rules, the so called sheep. But a society of only sheep is stagnant and will quickly be overtaken by societies that are less rigid and give some space to the so-called wolves, actors who are less concerned with adhering to the rules at all times and instead tend to draw their own path. The aforementioned "church of Satan" poses itself as an ideology aimed specifically at "wolves" and many of it's ideas (save for the occult ones) can be taken as a pretty coarse yet decent description of what a "wolf" actually is. A society where there are too many wolves would however quickly devolve into a kleptocracy and become entirely unworkable.


The distribution of sheep and wolves are of course dependent upon the society in question, but the reverse is also true. Societies are generally not in a stable equilibrium, if they are in equilibrium at all. Instead they kind of evolve. In this case it is useful to describe societies in the form of a collection of memes, essentially the bits of a societies ideas. Memes are similarly to genes in that they can appear, disappear and change depending upon external and internal factors. The entire system of memes that make up a society is probably (note that this is completely my own point of view) a chaotic system. Normally it will fluctuate within a set of ill-defined boundaries (for example the memes related to promiscuity and sex, to which the stance within western society became very open-minded in the '60 only to fling back to a more conservative yet still obsessed point of view later on). It will react to outside influences which causes these boundaries and the baseline to shift. If the shift is too rapid so that the memes can't catch up you get a partial or complete breakdown of the system.
A good example of partial breakdown would probably be the rise of Fascism all across the western and middle eastern world in the late '20s and early '30s. On the other hand a radical change applied slowly enough does not cause a breakdown but instead lets the system adapt. The rise of information technology is an example of this. It strongly influences large parts of society yet it was and still is gradual enough to allow most people to catch up. Interestingly enough some can't catch up and as a result it is possible that for some people, especial the illiterate and the elderly, a breakdown occurs without the entire society suffering from it. Another example of this would be the switch from national currencies to the Euro within the EU, which overall was adapted to reasonably well, but caused a bit of a breakdown for some who could not adapt.


Bringing this all together, we see that good and evil are external, independent of society, but what good and evil actually entail is defined entirely by society. They are, like the society that defines them, constantly changing as a result of outside influences and the general instability of societies themselves.
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Vector

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2010, 07:03:12 pm »

They're more pragmatic than they are evil.

Dunno.  It depends on if you consider this sort of overreaction evil or not:

Quote from: Wiki
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
   4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
  11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they don’t stop, destroy them.

Yeah, I don't think so.  An inability to deal with annoyances in any way but wanton destruction seems more immature than pragmatic to me.


awesomeness

Thanks for the interesting post.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Re: The concept of good & evil
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2010, 07:04:24 pm »

Quote from: Virex
stuff

While a relatively decent summary, I hope for your sake that that was copypased from somewhere.
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